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Eyo~

Tell us a little about yourself, pets or whatever.

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KaitouCat
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Tue May 12, 2015 5:02 pm

Eyo I've been hopping about looking for good kind communities about foxes in the hopes of learning information straight from the mouths of experienced owners and stumbled upon this wondrous little forum. Just from browsing around a small amount I've already learned quite a bit! Although I do wish I could find some more reliable breeders closer to my location. It seems as though most are 3 hours away but the drive will certainly be worth it and at least I've found 3 vets in the area that are willing to take foxes, one of which is on the list of this site. There's even a few small local farms to get fresh produce from.~ All that's left is to check about permits, build the enclosure, and continue to learn before bringing our new family member home. Looking into reds mostly but considering the possibility of an arctic since they're smaller..

Currently I live in a small relatively quiet neighborhood with nearby woods and fields which also have horse trails that are rarely used which could make for some good private walks. We also have quite a few other animals, mostly cats but we also have a dog and I personally care for and casually breed leopard geckos[for the love of reptiles, not for profit].

Some photos of my current lovelies[Excluding geckos since there's quite a few. You can find them here
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Shinichi

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Tyler [And Shinichi]

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Baby-boo [He was playing around in the light box I use for the geckos, what a doof.]

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Flip [That's her full grown size, she was thrown out as a kitten and thus we believe her growth was stunted]

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Odd

These are just a couple, I can't seem to find photos of the rest of them currently.
Also I'm a person with high anxiety towards other people so it's likely I'll be mostly lurking until getting a bit more settled in..
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
The Household Geckos Tumblr
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pat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby pat » Tue May 12, 2015 5:46 pm

welcome KaitouCat,

no need to feel shy around us. we are friendly , however, honest too.
there are many experienced fox owners here (I am one of them)
lots of great info. don't be afraid to ask.

I see you live in cinn, ohio. I am not sure, but, I think Tiny Tracks is not real far from you.
not sure what permits you need in ohio, but, they are legal. it is best to try and call the dnr and see what is required.
when you get a kit, please try and get one at 4-5 weeks of age. this will be easier for you.
also, make sure you completely understand their behavior and needs.

I can only give you my opinion on red vs. artic. (if you are referring to the true artics)
from what I have heard from people that have or had the true artics, they are harder to litter train.
and they should be kept cool. they don't endure the heat as well as the reds do.
on another note, for some reason, some people will call a red fox "artic marble" not sure why.
but, they are in the red family. actually, I have a marble, blue glazier and silver foxes.
(all in the red fox family)

I love the pictures of your cats, they are beautiful.

here is a link to my caresheet for foxes (needs more info and updated though)
http://sybilsden.com/caresheet/fox.htm

thank you for joining us, and hope you keep us updated and feel free to ask any questions, we are here to help.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
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KaitouCat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Tue May 12, 2015 6:06 pm

Thank you for the warm welcome and the advice! Also I've already read over your care sheet and quite a few others, [I have a lot of free time on my hands and not many people to talk to.] Yours though has some of the best and most helpful information I've seen. :P
Also I've heard of Tiny Tracks as well and that was likely the breeder I was going to go to but they're still about three hours away. Again though it's only a small damper and shouldn't be any trouble. As for the laws I came across a post that was made back in april of 2015 stating that they'd called and were told that you only needed a permit for wild color mutations such as normal reds, silvers, and grey[the species] and as mentioned in the OP I'll be contacting them tomorrow via phone to be double sure since they've not responded to my email that was sent out late last week.

Yes, I am indeed referring to the species of arctic fox, not the color mutation. I don't quite understand why people call it arctic marble fox, it just seems like it might be confusing to those whom are not aware of it being a color mutation of the red fox. Though they are absolutely gorgeous and are the morph of red I'm hoping to get if a red is chosen.
I'm also considering the possibility of a grey since they're smaller and are said to smell less but I'd really like a fox that didn't have a wild coat pattern which reds seem to be best option for. Honestly with the arctic arctic fox I'd really worry about the heat over here as the weather can be quite touchy. Just last week it was nearly 90F and it's only May..
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
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Ash
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Ash » Tue May 12, 2015 11:35 pm

Hi! It's great to have you here. I'm very happy you're doing your research before hand. That's always best. It will give you reasonable expectations about what to expect in your future fox. I'm personally more partial to reds, but that's because I haven't owned any arctics, lol. Maybe that could change...... hmm.... lol. I really like that reds are easy (easier) to litter train than arctics are.

Your animals are beautiful. I love the collie. I'm currently boarding a collie/border collie mix, and she's super fun and playful. I really appreciate collies a lot more now--their intelligence, and what they are capable of.
3 red fox, 4 iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, tarantula
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KaitouCat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Wed May 13, 2015 7:00 am

Actually he's a Shetland sheepdog[quite a fat one at that] which is pretty much like a miniature collie.
And thank you for the compliments and the welcome. v uv


Yeah you'd have to be an idiot to get an exotic without any prior research and if you do it's not at all fair to the animal because more often or not, they're the one that suffers more from your lack of knowledge.
I believe I've learned most of what I need but it likely will be a year or so before I'm able to pick one up since kits are currently being born and adopted out so by the time I'm ready it will likely be to late in the season. Not that there's any harm in waiting longer as it just gives more time to study even if at this point it's pretty much just viewing differing opinions on certain matters such as diets. I've also got to build the enclosure still which I'm hoping to make it nice and large for them. Only problem with that is a good portion of our yard was covered with blacktop years ago, it's mostly like concrete now but it doesn't really provide anywhere for them to dig so I might try either digging it up or put wooden planks around the rims to pour in some dirt for them. Unless perhaps you have a suggestion?
[I've had a lot of time to do reading as I don't have much on my plate of things to do]
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
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Ash
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Ash » Wed May 13, 2015 3:38 pm

Oh, a shetland sheepdog. Is that a "sheltie?"

One advantage to having a non-diggable floor is you can always power-hose it when you want to clean. Though maybe the blacktop might be too hot for their feet? I don't know if there's "differing" kinds of blacktop, but when it gets really hot outside the blacktop gets kind of like tar--so it does get pretty hot and might stick to their feet. I really don't know about that or not, but you can always put down mulch/straw/boards/etc or something for them to stand on, but then I'm not sure how you would clean it unless you wanted to replace your "substrate" each time you hosed.

And of course, if it's a non-diggable floor, they can't dig out. :icon-wink: So then you wouldn't have worries there.

I personally would not use a blacktop material if it's the kind I'm thinking about (playground type). Concrete is what lots of people use. If you want a dirt floor for them to dig, then you will need to dig deeper when putting in the framework, or put secure pavers lining the interior perimeter of the enclosure. For mine, I have kind of done both due to the slope of the land (changes from 7 feet to 10 feet). So we had to dig out part of it, but I'll still be putting pavers along the inside.
3 red fox, 4 iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, tarantula
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KaitouCat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Wed May 13, 2015 4:18 pm

Yeah, that's a sheltie.

Well I was under the impression that foxes should have something they can dig in? Just not be able to escape by digging. As for the blacktop I'd really akin it more to concrete now, I believe it used to have the tar stuff on it but it's so old and worn down it's pretty much just concrete and our yard is usually pretty shady, especially the area/areas I'm thinking of putting the enclosure. The only time the sun reaches the areas is mid-day and with a roof it shouldn't be a problem. I may even be able to provide a fan for them.

Image
General yard photo

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Area 1 of choice, around these corners of the house, pref both. If you squint you can see Odd in the window meowing at me to come back inside. Just a note, I have no idea what that pipe is but hopefully it can be removed or at the least, somehow protected or at the least, avoided.

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Area 2 of choice. Only problem is that there's a bit of an animal graveyard here of previous pets and might be a bit more visible.

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Close up of the concrete/blacktop.



Also seems the state has no issue about pet foxes so long as they're bought in the state. If bought from another state you need a certificate verification of health and an import permit. Sadly though it seems the county requires a permit but at least a state permit won't be required so long as they're bought in Ohio.

Only problem is, this application leaves me rather confused.
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
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Violet
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Violet » Wed May 13, 2015 4:37 pm

I spoke with the ODNR customer representative, and they said the state requires a permit, a "non-propagation" permit of $25. But I'm not entirely sure. I looked up my counties' ordinances and could not find one mention of needing a permit to keep one. They spoke at large about dangerous exotic animals, but the fox was wholly excluded from any mentioning. Unless I managed to miss it? I've read on here, that Ohio only requires permits for the wild reds, silvers, and grey foxes. But then The ODNR guy said it was likely wrong? I already had my paperwork filled and ready to go. But I keep getting differing accounts of what is and isn't. The wildlife officer responsible for my county is impossible to get a hold of. So if anyone knows what's right or not, could you please let us newbs know? I'm currently in Fairfield county, Ohio.
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KaitouCat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Wed May 13, 2015 5:08 pm

Yeah I saw that post as well and it really seems like there's mixed messages being sent here. That post stated that wild colors such as silvers, reds, and greys required permits[as of april, when the post was made?] I was told that it was alright so long as the animal was purchased within the state of Ohio, and you're being told that a state permit is needed.

I'm in Hamilton county Ohio if anyone can help. I might make some more calls myself later but I have terrible anxiety and don't want to keep making calls right now as I feel as if I'm going to annoy them.


edit - seems this paper is giving us a different number we should be calling. Doubt they're open now so we'll give it a shot tomorrow. Hopefully these people will tell us what we actually need to know since apparently everywhere else doesn't seem to know what they're talking about and most kept referring me to a different number to call. Quite an annoying ordeal finding out just who to talk to and at this point I'm skeptical as to what would even be right.
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
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Violet
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Violet » Wed May 13, 2015 7:27 pm

I know right? I got sent to three different numbers, who kept refering me back to each other! How can a person work for that particular branch, but haven't a clue about this? I understand that they can't just know everything right off the bat, but this is giving me a headache. Hopefully, you'll have better luck than me, or maybe someone who went through this can chime in and give us a definite answer. My husband was told we didn't need a permit for Roulette, and that's why he surprised me with him on Mother's Day, and now after all this back and fourth stuff, I'm not sure anymore.
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Ash
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Ash » Wed May 13, 2015 9:53 pm

The problem is, in Ohio all of the exotic laws got changed recently. So that thread may not contain correct information anymore. You do need a permit for native species and native colors, I believe. So grey foxes and red foxes (red, silver, cross). For the permit, you need to call the Ohio DNR. They should be able to answer your questions pretty quick about that since quite a few people call them for it--so it shouldn't seem like a rare thing or throw them off guard.

Oh, that blacktop stuff doesn't look bad at all--even has some grass growing. Yeah, that would be fine. For digging, many owners choose to put in a sand box or leave a spot of dirt for their foxes to dig, and the animals seem to benefit from that.
3 red fox, 4 iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, tarantula
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KaitouCat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Thu May 14, 2015 5:37 am

@Violet - Yeah it just seems like finding the correct facility is quite hard and most of them actually didn't know who to direct us to. Also congrats on your new family member!

@Ash - So then all colors of reds or just the wild colors? Because at the moment it sounds like you're describing what the post said? It should be the division of wildlife that's called right or would calling the main hub be enough?
I can try calling them tomorrow I guess but I'm fairly certain they were already called and the person who picked up couldn't help. Although I guess it wouldn't hurt to call again and hope someone more knowledgeable picks up the phone this time.


Also alright thanks! Guess I can simply leave it as is then and simply provide something contained for them to dig in. Although I may just cover the bottom with something as I likely plan on putting fencing on the bottom anyways to prevent the cage from being able to be moved or lifted and the fox escaping.
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
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Ash
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Ash » Thu May 14, 2015 6:59 pm

Up-to-date info from DNR:
Under this Ohio regulation, no non-domestic animal shall be imported into the state of Ohio unless accompanied by a permit issued prior to entry and certificate of veterinary inspection, is free of evidence of any contagious or infectious diseases or parasites harmful to humans or animals, and is in full compliance with all state and federal agencies rules and regulations.

https://www.animallaw.info/administrative/oh-exotic-pets-9011-17-12-non-domestic-animals

This is the part you'll want to call for:
$25 a year “Noncommercial propagating license” for a “fur-bearing animal” like the fox “to hold the animals in captivity.”


So if you want to know for sure, call the DNR and ask specifically about a noncommerical propagation license being needed for a "fur-bearer." Ask if it refers to only native species or encompasses all fur-bearers. If they say it covers native species, then ask about the wildtypes vs farm-bred colors.
3 red fox, 4 iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, tarantula
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KaitouCat
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Re: Eyo~

Postby KaitouCat » Thu May 14, 2015 7:16 pm

We called earlier and she had basically said it refers to all types of fox regardless of color because it' "still classifies as a fox". We also already have the permit application printed off and she explained a few of those details as well and claimed that we needed to have the animal before sending in the application and then they'd come down to do an inspection.
Personally I'm not to sure about that aspect of the information nor did she tell us about any other requirements such as enclosure size requirements but I'm sure I could find that out myself or just call back tomorrow.[and hope I don't get the same person since as mentioned, I have terrible anxiety and don't want to be caught talking to the same person again and feel embarrassed for asking something that should have been asked before..]

What makes me nervous though is if you're supposedly meant to have the animal before hand, what happens if they come down and you don't meet their standards? Would they simply take the kit away or give you time to correct your mistake? I just find it hard to believe that you're supposed to get an animal you have to have a permit for BEFORE sending in for said permit. It just doesn't seem to make sense.
Leopard geckos 3.4 Ball pythons 1.1 Cats 1.2 Fox 1.0
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Violet
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Re: Eyo~

Postby Violet » Thu May 14, 2015 7:37 pm

I wonder what exactly do they inspect, if it's going to be a house fox that goes out on a harness? Not ideal, I know. But for the first year, my husband and I want to keep the critter indoors, with supervised outside time. His dad is a contractor, and does building designs, and my husband wanted to make something really neat for Rudy...He'll have a room all to himself, if he wants some space in the meantime.

Glad you got a better response than my run around. But why on earth would you have to have the animal already in your possession, before sending in for the permit?

EDIT: I'm calling tomorrow to see if they tell me the same thing. You used the phone number on the permit application, right?

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