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Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Tell us a little about yourself, pets or whatever.

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Mathilda
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Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby Mathilda » Sat May 19, 2018 11:51 pm

Hi everyone!

I've been referencing this board for a long time and finally decided to actually join the community. :)

My background (I'll limit it to the relevant stuff because I know the four-legged friends are the star of the show! :lol: ): I'm a state wildlife rehabilitator, which here is unfortunately more highly regulated regarding possessing animals (for rebah and future release/placement if necessary) than hunting and trapping is! :wall: I was previously a rehabilitator in another state after a long apprenticeship, and later a Wildlife Educator (our facillity didn't rehab/release but rather housed non-releasable "animal ambassadors" - from black bear to cougar to coyotes to wolves and a variety of foxes to racoons, salamanders, snakes... anything native to the state including exterpated animals) where I worked closely with the animals and educated the public about coexistence with wildlife, why most baby animals DO NOT need rescuing and how to best help them, the truth regarding "vicious" predators and "filthy trash-eating vermin" and the real vs imagined danger to kids/pets/people, the natural ecological balance and how humans have disrupted it..... etc etc. I've also worked with exotic animals such as large cats, kangaroos, capuchins, a spider monkey (I once got bit by a spider-bit spider monkey lol), lemurs, coatis, etc at a (need it be said) non-AZA traveling zoo. I'm a professional horse trainer to pay the bills. (For the record, horse training is a very poor choice if one wishes to pay bills).

With that out of the way, now the "unusual" fuzzy fam - skipping the domestic herd animals. The love of my life is an Asian Dingo, aka Pariah Dog, aka Khmer Village Dog, or whatever you'd like to call the "breed" - not an accurate term in this case, but anyways. I nabbed him as a small sick pup while living in rural Cambodia (please see FAQ below) and he just turned 5 years old. He's universally known by all who meet him as "the best/most well behaved dog ever" (unless they knew him before about 18 months old, in which case he's known as "that wild little s****head demon monster" :lol: ). I also now have a coyote pup, which is a large reason I'm joining y'all. TBH I'm very nervous about legality issues, and while anyone who knows me personally could easily identify me from the details I've already given, I'm concerned about sharing too many generally identifying details because having a coyote (even as a rehabber) is highly illegal in my state - as in most - unless of course you want to skin it, put it in a cage and run it down with hounds to be ripped apart alive, caught it in a leg trap and want to collect urine for a while before killing it, or have other imaginative plans for its impending death. :wall: :wall: :wall: Even releasing it is *hugely* illegal. :wall: More details on the situation will be in my next post in the appropriate forum. It wasn't an intentional acquisition, but it is what it is.

Dingo FAQ (y'all may know this stuff because you're all more knowledgeable than most, but I always have to answer these things so here they are :roll: ): Yes he's really from Cambodia and no, it wasn't difficult to catch him. No, America doesn't have a quarantine on importing dogs, I flew with him in my carry-on from Cambodia. No, dingos aren't native to Australia, they're natives of Asia and were brought by sea-farers to Australia where they're a feral, introduced dog. No, a dingo isn't a wild canid like a wolf, coyote, fox, dhole, jackal etc - a dingo is genetically speaking a primitive domestic dog which has never been selectively bred in the way modern breed dogs have been - this includes selective-bred primitive breeds like the shiba inu and basenji which are still amazing, beautiful, difficult primitive breeds. No they're not pets in rural Cambodia but neither are they truly "wild" - they're the village garbage crew/vermin control and do as they please.

Anyways is excellent to finally join and say hi - I'm hoping some of y'all can help me with coyote questions and like I said, there'll be more info about that in my next post in a more appropriate sub. Kind regards, y'all! :mrgreen:
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TamanduaGirl
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun May 20, 2018 12:18 am

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the interesting and detailed intro.
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Ash
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby Ash » Sun May 20, 2018 9:10 pm

Hi. It's great to have such a knowledgeable member joining us. :) Definitely sounds like you've been around the block with animals, lol.

Sadly in many states it's illegal to rehab coyotes. Here in Utah it's illegal to rehab raccoons and foxes--they need to be put down. :(
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
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Mathilda
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby Mathilda » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:28 pm

Ash - Thank you for your kind words - I'm sure many many people here are much more knowledgeable than myself, I just do my best. :)

It's just foxes and coyotes which are illegal to rehab here (excluding of course MBTA, I think - state and federal sources gave me unclear answers so I assume it's a "no"), the reason our DNR gives is because they're a rabies vector... which is silly because racoons, skunks, possums etc can be rehabbed. Then again the coyote is technically an invasive species here.... it's all beyond me honestly, but dangit how could anybody put down a couple weeks old fuzz-potato. If it IS ever (God forbid) necessary I can do it humanely, but I hope it's never necessary. It's crazy how much the laws vary between states though. Especially when it comes to exotic animal ownership, I'm sure y'all appreciate that more than most.
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catlover1019
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby catlover1019 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:31 am

Any updates?

I don't really think that the coyote could be considered an invasive species anywhere in North America. Extension of a continious range happens all the time, and saying that the other wildlife is the same, the populations would come in to balance over time. They might be concerened about humans and pets, but humans and our pets are definitely an invasive species almost everywhere.

If governments really want to reduce the number of wild coyotes in the areas they control, capture and introduction to the exotic pet trade is just as good of a way as hunting, but the animal doesn't have to die. It's really a win-win, and I wish the governments of the world would see it that way. We should treat unwanted wild animals the same as feral cats. Castrating and releasing the adults, and taking and adopting out as pets any existing babies. This would be a much more ethical form of population control than hunting to kill.
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Ash
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby Ash » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:11 pm

Actually, invasive species don't have to be a species introduced by humans to be considered invasive. Technically red foxes are invasive to Utah. Humans just pushed their range over to a place where they did not originally belong--like 100 years ago. This is according to a DWR official here in Utah, so I'm just repeating what he told me. So probably the coyotes in this case left their normal range and moved over where they weren't before.

It is kind of silly though. Yeah, humans pushed their native ranges farther out, but the animal still moved there on its own. I guess I kind of get it.

I think if an animal can be hunted and killed, it should be able to also be kept as a pet. Doesn't make sense to me why killing it is okay but letting it live in a captive environment is not. In both situations the animal is removed from the wild--which is the point of a lot of hunting.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
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TamanduaGirl
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Red fox are considered both invasive and native to Oregon and Washington. There is a native subspecies to some areas but released red foxes from fur farms have pretty much taken over everywhere.

Still kind of weird to say a subspecies of the same species that is native is invasive but I guess there's enough differences to warrant it. I think the native subspecies is smaller.

Virginia possum are non-native to the West coast as well but not invasive since they cause no harm. Settlers brought them along as a food source.

Edit: maybe it's the same for Utah "While there seems to be some debate over just how common red foxes were in Utah prior to its colonization in the mid-1840s, there is no doubt that the population is many times larger today." If they were there prior to colonization they are native but maybe it's the fur farm subspecies that they consider invasive. They do have a wider range due to less coyotes to kill them https://www.deseretnews.com/article/640 ... -Utah.html
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catlover1019
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby catlover1019 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:40 pm

All of that makes sense.

Virginia possum are non-native to the West coast as well but not invasive since they cause no harm.


Absolutely, that means they have to cause harm to be considered an invasive species. Do foxes and coyotes cause harm in area where they are "invasive?" This only makes sense if we're talking harm to native species. Humans and their pets are definitely not native species to North America, so harm to them wouldn't count. I'm not saying we don't have a right to defend ourselves, but "invasive species" is not the right word because the same problems would occur if they were native. Also, it's only really harm to native species if the populations are unable to come into balance naturally. Saying that the other animals are mostly the same between their native range and the places where they are "invasive" I doubt this would be an issue.

No one has commented on my proposed solution for how to reduce the populations of unwanted animals without killing them.
We should treat unwanted wild animals the same as feral cats. Castrating and releasing the adults, and taking and adopting out as pets any existing babies. This would be a much more ethical form of population control than hunting to kill.

I know it's unconventional, but I think it's a good idea, and I'll stand by it until somebody shows me otherwise. Of course, it would require changes in laws to be implemented, but I'm curious what people think about it as a hypothetical idea.
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TamanduaGirl
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:12 am

The article I linked says they are having a negative impact on nesting birds in Utah but the main issue seems to be that the lack of coyotes allowed foxes to bloom to levels higher than they normally would have been. Trying to balance what we have unbalanced can get complicated.

I really don't agree with TNR of cats. The colonies never or rarely shrink when doing so and those cats are still in the environment killing things. Putting invasive species into human care might help a bit if fixed since some who get them are bound to have them get out. Like nutrea are invasive here. A friend got an invasive permit to keep them and took some from the wild but it's a very hard permit to get. Ideally they could issue permits to take and keep them long as you get them fixed but it wouldn't make a big enough dent as not enough people would want them. There's really no reason not to allow it though.
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catlover1019
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Re: Hi everyone - greetings, background, my fuzzy fam

Postby catlover1019 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:53 am

I apologize for not reading the article that you linked. Upon reading it however, all that it contains is speculation of a problem without anything to back it up "Large populations of foxes could prove detrimental to the survival of nesting waterfowl, including geese and ducks as well as the nesting shorebirds and wading birds." It also says that resarch is being done, obvoiusly you can't draw conclusions from research that hasn't been done yet. It also adds another solution of how to deal with animals without directly killing them. Add natural predators.

Trying to balance what we have unbalanced can get complicated.

Yes, it definitely is. I contend that if you're doing both "predator control" and "prey control" you're doing something wrong. Unless extintion is a possibiliy, we should take a step back, and see what happens.

Have we even been doing TNR for long enough to make an impact. Also, I fear that many feral cats aren't really feral, but are really abondoned pets. It's the perfect crime, drop your cat off where there are already tons of cats.

Some animals would definitely need a public-image change before a lot of people would want them as pets. I agree that there's definitely no reason to ban trapping and keeping animals they want to get rid of in the first place.

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