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Coydogs

Wolf hybrids or other exotic species crossed with domestic

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RabbleFox
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Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:31 pm

I've been doing a tad bit of research on Coydogs recently and I haven't come up with very much.

Does anyone know anything about Coydogs and their personalities? I've heard the old song and dance about "They are part wild animal, they will keelllll yew!" but I've also heard that "They are like the friendly version of a coyote! Shyer than a dog but great pets... yadadada" I've the feeling their temperament is somewhere in the middle.

Does anyone know of a reputable breeder? The only breeder I could find via Google was Wildside Coydogs.
http://www.mindstorm.ca/coydog/ This seems ok but the pups don't always look coyote-y (this isn't extremely important but... it kind of defeats the purpose of a coydog if he doesn't look atleast a big coydoggy) and there isn't any evidence that the Border Collie Dad is health tested. "He comes from many generations of happy, healthy, prick eared dogs." I kind of wanted to see OFA results and CEA rating or at least a pedigree. Plus they are charging $1,500 per pup. Is that reasonable? When a good, working line Border Collie is $500 in my area (health tested) and a Coyote from Hillview is only $200... $1,500 for a puppy seems a bit silly.

This isn't something that I will be investing in any time soon, just curious really.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby Cindy23323 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:27 pm

While I know nothing about coydogs, I want to say I'm pretty sure that the part you heard about someone saying "They are part wild animal, they will keelllll yew!" is a myth.
Do you know how many times I and others have heard the same exact sentence about wolfdogs too?
A ton.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:22 am

Cindy23323 wrote:While I know nothing about coydogs, I want to say I'm pretty sure that the part you heard about someone saying "They are part wild animal, they will keelllll yew!" is a myth.
Do you know how many times I and others have heard the same exact sentence about wolfdogs too?
A ton.


Lol. I figured that wasn't the truth! But I'm willing to bet that they aren't your average house dog either.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby sarajeku » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:16 pm

I've actually been looking into this breeder a bit.
The mother, Nala, isn't a coyote. She's a coydog, which is why she throws blue eyed puppies. I believe (if I remember correctly) she's half coyote and half husky. If you look at her closely, she doesn't look exactly like a coyote. That makes her coydog puppies that she sells 1/4 coyote. Her goal is to create puppies that are active and trainable.

She's the only coydog breeder I know of though. icon_confused.gif
I would actually buy one of her puppies. I think they're awesome!


Here's her facebook. Bonnie Judd

Some puppies as adults
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Re: Coydogs

Postby Ash » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:11 pm

I can see the coyote in those dogs, which is more than other "coydog breeders" can say. She has some beautiful animals there. Thank-you for posting the pictures, Sarajeku. I wonder what her pups temperaments are like?
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:37 pm

sarajeku wrote:Image


That right there is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. Exotic but functional. I love agility and want a dog that can compete and come out with me without being overly shy. *want agility coydog so much*

Basically, I want a coyote with a doggy-er temperament.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:39 pm

Giving this thread a little bump.

How much interest is there in F1 coydogs? Is there much demamd? Stateside, there are no known breeders (at least to me!). I'm curious about a few things. Would anyone be interested in a coyote crossed to something-not-a-husky? Coydogs are legal to own in Michigan without a permit and as long as the county and city hasn't an restrictions, they may be moved around without complaint. Do y'all think an F1 coydog would allowed to compete in dog competitions? Things like obedience, rally, and agility? I can't see why not and I don't think there are any rules against it. Also, I don't think a huskyXcoyote is necessarily the best choice. I'd personally be very interested in a KelpieXcoyote or border collieXcoyote or sheltieXcoyote for the biddability aspect.

As previously stated in this thread, this idea is still a few years out.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby Alynn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:59 pm

That's something you'd have to ask the DNR about, and with them being not-so smart about foxes I would imagine you asking about Coydogs would get them scratching their heads.

Wolfdogs I know aren't legal, but coyotes are fine as long as you have a permit like you would have a fox so I don't think a coydog would be illegal, at least there's nothing in the act pertaining to wolf dogs that says anything about coyotes. I don't think a coydog would fall under any sort of legislation or need the same amount of restriction. I mean, the Captive Wild animal order, even in the most updated writing, doesn't say anything about interspecfic hybrids (other than turkeys). So I would really say that there shouldn't be any sort of legislation against it, especially since ranch-colored foxes can be kept without a permit despite being the same species.

Before you ask the DNR I'd make sure to make a case for not having them restricted because I wouldn't put it past them to ask you to get a permit anyway, which would mean the coydog wouldn't be able to leave the property.

I have to admit I've very interested in coydogs too, but somehow it's easier to find a coyote breeder than a coydog breeder.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:12 pm

I have actually already contacted the permits officer from the mDNR! I worded my initial email very carefully to make sure I got the answers I was looking for. And low and behold, everything is ok!

Casey Reitz says coydogs are legal as there are no laws pertaining to them. If a coydog could be confused with a coyote (AKA if it looks super like a coyote), then you would need a permit. However, considering the crosses I am thinking about, I don't think the pups would look very coyote-y. This would take away from the aesthetic but I'm more interested in getting coydogs who can A) be managed easily by at least sport dog or very active people (I want these dogs to be active and drivey but not crazy) B) are biddable C) legal D) good at dog sports/dog jobs/can be useful besides being a lawn ornament, and most importantly E) health tested to the best of my ability. I love the look of the more coyote coydogs posted previously, but looks to me are less important than actual function.

I am going to print and keep the email Reitz sent me. Before I launch my endeavor (if I ever do, that is) I will be emailing the mDNR again to double/triple/quadruple check with them on the legalities.

What I will probably do is breed the coydogs myself. I would obtain, train, and compete with a Kelpie/BC/or larger Sheltie bitch until she was two. Then she would be health tested, and if she is good to go, I would find a dog captive/"domestic" coyote to breed her to. I would like to have some interest in her litter before I go ahead and breed however. It's hard to say if the pups will even turn out exactly how I want. It's a toss up because all the pups will be midcontents. I think I might have a hard time getting buyers because I think the pups could either be super super awesome sport dogs or they could be burn outs who are too nervy/too wiley to compete or work with in public. But if they do turn out as I'd hoped, I would be keeping a bitch from the litter probably to outcross to another dog to keep the line going. I think all this would be easier and more fruitful than importing one from the Canadian breeder. Plus, starting my own line means I get to do it my way.

Obviously early socialization is going to be a huge factor and this would be a super big deal if I did it. I am kind of particular how my dogs are bred/where they come from so the litter itself will be a large expense/time commitment. I'll be graduated and hopefully working/owning my own company by that time, however. This is still maybe 2 years out before I start looking at breeders for females.

But I totally maybe really wanna coydog and I may jump through the hoops to get one.

ETA dog types I would consider just for funsies.
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Smooth coat, B/W prick eared Border Collie- BCs are the easiest to come across and often make good sports dogs and pets themselves.
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Black and tan Kelpie- I would also consider a brown and tan version but I really want to avoid permits and Kelpies are rare in the US.
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Large sable Sheltie of moderate coat- Moderate coat and size is a big issue. They could easily be too small to breed to coyote and safely whelp pups. Many show shelties have too much coat for me to consider.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby Alynn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:35 pm

That's really awesome to hear you looking into it.

I wonder how the dog community will react though. I know some dog breeders already don't like wolf dog breeders or exotics so we'll see what happens there. Maybe you could talk to the coydog breeder we do know of and see what her experiences have been. That is if you even mind what others have to say about it. :lol:

Though a possible problem is that coyotes come in such a wide range of color that's nearly comparable to red foxes colors at times. I wonder what could be construed as 'looks enough like a coyote to warrant a permit'. Which I think is a rather stupid and vague rule, if I may be so blunt.

Coyotes are surprisingly small though. I always thought they were large but you're actually looking at about a 20-30, 40 or so at the very most, pound animal, depending on the subspecies and such. Smooth collies are in the 45-75 lb range so it seems like a smooth collie could be bit big. Kelpie might not be so bad but like you mentioned if they aren't commonly bred, you might bump into people in their circle that don't like what you're doing, and that down the line could make it possibly difficult to find unrelated, well-bred kelpies? I'm not sure honestly. Animal people can be kind of weird so that's just why I'm thinking about. Shelties do sound a little small, and you probably do want the mother to be domestic so that it's easier to handle the pups - who knows how a coyote will react to even a bonded owner poking around them and their pups. But I think that's what you were thinking too.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:46 pm

Alynn wrote:That's really awesome to hear you looking into it.

I wonder how the dog community will react though. I know some dog breeders already don't like wolf dog breeders or exotics so we'll see what happens there. Maybe you could talk to the coydog breeder we do know of and see what her experiences have been. That is if you even mind what others have to say about it. :lol:


Crafty and I were talking when we went camping and I was like "I could DO that..." lol. I don't know how the dog community would react. I think some people might be interested and may want to try them out but I think others will frown on the mix. I know for sure some people will freak out and if they are any good at their job, will try to get hybrids tossed out of competitions, even in legal areas. I know a lot of people want and like sport mixes but I dunno how they would feel about a "wild thing" mixed in there. I think the mix will be solid though. I've got a good feeling on it.

Alynn wrote:Though a possible problem is that coyotes come in such a wide range of color that's nearly comparable to red foxes colors at times. I wonder what could be construed as 'looks enough like a coyote to warrant a permit'. Which I think is a rather stupid and vague rule, if I may be so blunt.


It is very confusing and, quite frankly, dumb. But if I do the easiest mix (BC) I think the pups will come out pretty marked up and easily distinguished. Further breedings would result in dog further away from the coyote look (probably :( ) while hopefully maintaining superior agility and drive.

Alynn wrote:Coyotes are surprisingly small though. I always thought they were large but you're actually looking at about a 20-30, 40 or so at the very most, pound animal, depending on the subspecies and such. Smooth collies are in the 45-75 lb range so it seems like a smooth collie could be bit big. Kelpie might not be so bad but like you mentioned if they aren't commonly bred, you might bump into people in their circle that don't like what you're doing, and that down the line could make it possibly difficult to find unrelated, well-bred kelpies? I'm not sure honestly. Animal people can be kind of weird so that's just why I'm thinking about. Shelties do sound a little small, and you probably do want the mother to be domestic so that it's easier to handle the pups - who knows how a coyote will react to even a bonded owner poking around them and their pups. But I think that's what you were thinking too.


By smooth collie, I mean smooth Border Collie, which should be smaller. I would be looking into working lines most likely for looks and overall presence so their size varies A LOT. Ideally, I want a bitch to be between 25 and 35lbs, I think. Shelties are smaller but have such nice little personalities. I'd like to see that in my line so maybe the second outcross would be a Sheltie. I love love Kelpies but the community is pretty close knit and I think they would all hate me if I bought a bitch to cross out.

I'm fully prepared to get flak for all of this but I'm hoping to still get some support and at least ten people on my waitlist before I breed, when the time comes. After the end of the year, I am launching a stud site/maybe craft and leash website so I hope to become better known in the dog community as someone who competes and breeds. Maybe I'll make some friends who would be interested! I also hope to start getting some titles on the dogs I currently own soonish but money is tight and the classes I want to take are hard to come by, currently.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby Alynn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:01 pm

I think you could go for what the Canadian breeder has with her dogs. Large white markings are a pretty definitive sign of domestication - most coyotes you see with the markings are generally thought to have dog ancestry (or even piebaldism but that's distinct enough in appearance from regular white markings I think, and rare enough that I don't think it would count as a 'wild look'). Blue eyes and white markings with that pretty agouti fur is a nice look that I think is doggy enough. Maybe send a picture to Casey and ask what she thinks.

And sorry, my mistake. You know a lot more about dog breeds so I'll leave all that to you. x) Though it is kind of a bummer to hear about the Kelpies, I figured as much when I was thinking about say, the AKK community and even more common breeds like English Mastiffs still are pretty tight knit.

I'm eagerly looking forward to see if you're able to go through with this.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:29 pm

Alynn wrote:I think you could go for what the Canadian breeder has with her dogs. Large white markings are a pretty definitive sign of domestication - most coyotes you see with the markings are generally thought to have dog ancestry (or even piebaldism but that's distinct enough in appearance from regular white markings I think, and rare enough that I don't think it would count as a 'wild look'). Blue eyes and white markings with that pretty agouti fur is a nice look that I think is doggy enough. Maybe send a picture to Casey and ask what she thinks.

And sorry, my mistake. You know a lot more about dog breeds so I'll leave all that to you. x) Though it is kind of a bummer to hear about the Kelpies, I figured as much when I was thinking about say, the AKK community and even more common breeds like English Mastiffs still are pretty tight knit.

I'm eagerly looking forward to see if you're able to go through with this.


I may contact the Canadian breeder, just to ask a few questions about her dogs and their drive and to see how well they are doing and what her policies are and just about everything under the sun. I hope she doesn't find me annoying or disrespectful! After all, I am kind of stealing her thunder as a potential coydog breeder. And I won't be charging nearly as much as she does per pup. I'll probably halve that $1,500 into $750 or lower.

Dog breeds are my specialty! Lol. I really hope that people will want to buy into the program as I am really excited about it.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby Talys » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:30 pm

Love where this is going. I'm definitely willing to get behind this, and possibly buy (literally) into the program. In all honesty though, I do think you'd make a fantastic breeder.
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Re: Coydogs

Postby RabbleFox » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:38 pm

Talys wrote:Love where this is going. I'm definitely willing to get behind this, and possibly buy (literally) into the program. In all honesty though, I do think you'd make a fantastic breeder.


As long as people are interested and the pups have quality homes, I am more than willing to try a cross (or more depending on the reception of the first litter!). I try to the best by my dogs and to do things as ethically as possible. Thank you for the compliment!!!
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