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Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Wolf hybrids or other exotic species crossed with domestic

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caninesrock
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:14 pm

@Tarheel:I don't have a beef against the Tamaskan dog. It's the opossite rather. I was really interested in getting a Tamaskan Dog at one time but then I started researching the breed(like all responsible people who are interested in a specific breed should do) and then I ran into some rumors. Not being one to just believe rumors blindly, I decided to continue my research to see if the rumors were true or not and I sadly gathered evidence that they indeed seem to be which means that unfortunately I can no longer in good concious get a Tamaskan. I honestly could care less if the breed has wolf or Czech in it or not,but the thing that does bother me is all the evidence I've found on the apparent dishonesty of the breeders. As for why I posted all the evidence, it was simply to get second opinions before I made the decision to completely shut out the breed from my life as I really don't want to because I really like them and they are beautiful breed.

@Ciao:I don't believe I was being rude at all. You aren't aware of how aggressively defensive the Tamaskan founders get. I've seen them join other forums I've been on before just to make posts arguing against the rumors and for no other purpose. For example, on the Czech Wolfdog forum. They also delete posts anyone makes on the official Tamaskan forum questioning the legitamcy of the breed and the evidence against them rather than actually presenting facts to the contrary in a calm,civil manner. I understand sort of getting tired of that on their own forum,but posting everytime anyone makes any topic about it on any forum and join just to make a post about it even if they aren't actually interested in said community just looks plain suspicious no matter what the breed.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Tarheel » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Ciaobella,
Thank you for your support.

CaninesRock,
As I only joined this forum to help Angel out with her situation, I didn't really take the time to read the earlier posts. Now that I have read them, I see no intelligent form of any evidence anywhere in your posts or the redundant emails you added to your posts from years gone by.
You wrote "I honestly could care less if the breed has wolf or Czech in it or not,but the thing that does bother me is all the evidence I've found on the apparent dishonesty of the breeders. As for why I posted all the evidence, it was simply to get second opinions before I made the decision to completely shut out the breed from my life as I really don't want to because I really like them and they are beautiful breed."
I am really sorry that you feel the rampant emails from Tuuli, Kim, and other believers of the Aatu created Tamaskan Fable are evidence. Most every email you posted from these people I have either read before or had been sent copies of them in the past. Accusations are not evidence. I suppose you also believe the ridiculous posts created by Right Puppy Kennel under his pen name Ronnie Marsh, "The Tamaskan Truth" site.
Maybe you contacted me in the past, I am not sure, but if someone was as interested in the Tamaskan breed as you claim to be, you would have been asking questions to Tamaskan owners and breeders instead of spreading gossip from the Internet. If your not going to take the time to get information from the right sources, then maybe you should seek another breed other than the Tamaskan Dog. Did you ever ask yourself, why these people who don't own Tamaskans, have such an outspoken derogatory outlook on the breed? It does make sense for someone to write such garbage, true or not, about something they have no stake in. One has to wonder what is their motive then. Just like you have done, You have taken every email from the past 3-4 years, after you have decided that you no longer are interested in the breed and plastered it on the internet. Has this served a purpose to you? If you want to continue this, I have posted my email in the previous post, please write.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:12 pm

Because if people are saying someone is dishonest why would I ask someone who could just be lying to me too? My intention is not to spread gossip. It's simply to ask others opinions on the evidence or gossip,whatever you want to call it and make an informed decision about who is telling the truth. For example, if a product is being sold on an infomerical, I wouldn't call the number on the phone and ask them, "Hey. Is this product really totally unbreakable?" because of course they're going to tell me whatever they think I want to hear in order to get me to buy their product so I go and look for reviews on them on the internet from other various sources. It's the same with anything. You don't just take info from one source when researching something. That would be stupid and lead to being misinformed because then you'd only have one side of the story. I have posted TDR's side of the story as well as the other sides. I've presented the arguments of all sides for others to help me judge and make my decision on. If my intention was to spread gossip or slander the TDR,then I wouldn't have quoted their statements and arguments as well. You've still yet to tell me why Czech Wolfdog breeders would have any reason or motive to lie about the Tamaskan? I do take what the Aatu and Right Puppy have to say with a grain of salt since they have agendas,but when I saw that even Czech breeders which have nothing to do with the breed and no agenda towards it were saying stuff I started to wonder if maybe Right Puppy and the Aatu breeders might have atleast some partial truth to their statements...

As for why I haven't contacted any Tamaskan breeders directly yet there are several reason:
1. Rumors about the breed on various sites have made me doubt the breed and/or breeders validity and question and be unsure of whether or not I really want the breed.
2. I'm not ready for the breed at the moment. I'm pretty sure a breed with husky and malamute in its cross is a very high energy breed that would probably do awful cooped up in a tiny aparment.
3. I'm still researching from various sources to find out which side is telling the truth about the breed and if the breeders can be trusted.

So,put simply the reasons are:
1. I'm not currently living in a situation where I can have the breed at the moment.
2. I'm not sure if I want the breed or not yet.
3. I'm unsure whether or not the breeders pratice unethical practices and this makes me wary of purchasing the breed or asking the breeders themselves for fear they'll lie to me.\

Also, I never said the breed no longer interests me. I'm still very much interested in it which is why I asked for others opinions. And I am not the one who posted those emails. They are qouted from another site that I linked to in my first site. The creator of that site is the one who gathered up all of those emails.

Yes. The purpose for me is to get others help in figuring out whose telling the truth and which side to believe.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Angel » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:17 am

Thank you for this argumentation. You did it better than I could... !

hum... everyone can say what he wants, but for me "litter due", "puppies ready for new home on Christmas".... can not be a language problem. BUT, finally, I saw a lot of websites, didn't finally know who to believe, who is telling the truth. As you said, there are to much informations. As you did. When you are interessted in a breed, just look for as much information as possible.

And when you find so much informations, you make a choice. I choose to take a Tamaskan. My experience should be an example, how it can go on. If Tarheel had no problem to receive her puppy, so wunderful... but on other forums I get informations from people who didn't have a good experience with Blustag. So again : which one should we believe?

I'm just afraid to see that's all about dishonest human being without considering our friends the dogs. I'm sure, all of you wish to live in a better world. So if that is the case, only one word should be said...

TRANSPARENCY!

And we all be happy :eleph:
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Tarheel » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:05 pm

Caninesrock wrote;
"3. I'm unsure whether or not the breeders pratice unethical practices and this makes me wary of purchasing the breed or asking the breeders themselves for fear they'll lie to me."
You are lumping all Tamaskan breeders as they are not to be trusted. Not really fair assesment from your inexperianced perspective of the breed and the breeders.

If you were to go buy a new car, are you going to base your experience on the complaints you see throughout the Internet?
If I see a few bad reviews on a 2012 Mustang, Is that what I am going to base my decision on? NO. I am going to talk to owners of the car, and in turn I am going to ask them about thier experience with certain dealers.
Just the same, If I am looking for information on a particular breed of dog, I would first contact the Breeder if I did not know any owners, I would then ask that breeder for a list of references and owners that they have sold to and get their opinions.
The only place you are are going to find honest opinions is from the owners of the breed, and from the many reputable breeders who are associated with the Tamaskan Dog Register. Going to a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (CSV)forum post is NOT the Place to get honest and acurate information. No offense to the CSV owners and breeders, but this is not their breed and there expertise lies within their own breed and not of the Tamaskan. There is no War or fued beween the two breeds either. In fact, I talk and write to a number of CSV breeders. Most of the posts that Caninerocks cut and pasted onto the forum, were not from CSW breeders and owners, but from the same people who wrote the No Wolf Tamaskan Fable.
I hope that your research on the Tamaskan Dog breed works out for you, and you are able to find your answers about the truth of the breed. I do suggest you re-evaluate your approach on how you research. Stop listening to the hype and the gossip, but focus on talking to actual owners of the breed. Start your search on reputable websites from people who have documented evidence and not speculation and heresay.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Angel » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:18 pm

Nice to hear you saying that!! starting to look with people who have evidences and no speculations. Yes!! You're right.

So, again, that's exactely why I shared my experience. No speculation, just evidences.

And I say it again, and I'm sure Caninerock think the same : I tell about ONE breeder, NOT about THE breed.

But if there is already so much problems with that breed, why not be friendlier with customers? Why not answer the quesitons? why not giving pictures?

That does NOT help to give the breed a good reputation but only seems as all must kept secret !!!
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Tarheel » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:42 pm

I cannot speak for other breeders, but for only myself. Your situation does seem to be an isolated incident and not the norm for that breeder.
You cannot judge a breed by one dog or by one breeder. Rumours spread faster than fact because it is human nature to spread rumor and gossip because it is more interesting and controversial. The worse the story, the faster it gets aound.

Angel, I still offer my assistance to you, if you think I can be trusted. You have my contact information.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Ash » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:08 pm

Sorry to butt in, but I have some questions about the breed just out of curiosity if you'd care to answer them. Are their temperaments similar to huskies and malamutes (strong-willed, lots of energy)? How much do they typically cost? And lastly, if you have the time and wouldn't mind, could you post some pictures of your dog? I'd never heard of the Tamaskan dog before this thread, so I don't really know what they look like. To me it almost seems like their looks are quite varied, but maybe that's just because I haven't seen enough pictures of the breed. Thanks.

I'm mostly interested in exotic canines, and will probably stick with foxes and wolves and a few domestics. I probably won't ever buy a Tamaskan, but I like to hear about other animals and breeds just to be more knowledgable. :)
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:51 pm

Ash wrote:Sorry to butt in, but I have some questions about the breed just out of curiosity if you'd care to answer them. Are their temperaments similar to huskies and malamutes (strong-willed, lots of energy)? How much do they typically cost? And lastly, if you have the time and wouldn't mind, could you post some pictures of your dog? I'd never heard of the Tamaskan dog before this thread, so I don't really know what they look like. To me it almost seems like their looks are quite varied, but maybe that's just because I haven't seen enough pictures of the breed. Thanks.

I'm mostly interested in exotic canines, and will probably stick with foxes and wolves and a few domestics. I probably won't ever buy a Tamaskan, but I like to hear about other animals and breeds just to be more knowledgable. :)


Ash, here is the wikipedia page on them. Obviously, because it's wikipedia, some information is going to be wrong and one of the photos appears to be a photo of Utongan(or however you spell that name), another wolf look a like dog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamaskan_dog

These three are the best examples that I know of of what the breed should look like:
Image

Image

Image

This one appears to be a Utogan instead of Tamaskan:
Image

And these appear to be Northern Inuit dogs maybe(a third type of wolf look alike dog):
Image

There' also this site:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/t/tamaskandog.htm

But alot of their info is wrong. For example, they state the breed orginated in Finland,but in my research it seems the founder of the breed is from the UK?

As for the breed's personality, I've found other sources saying that they are crosses between malamutes,siberian husky, german shepard, and Finnish huskies of unknown origins(probably Lapponian Herder Dogs aka Finnish Reindeer Herding Huskies given their similar markings to them):

Lapponian Herder Dog
Image

Supposedly there is only a little bit of German Shepard in the mix so I would think they probably do have a very nothern sled dog-like personality since that's what most of their mix is made up of. They are also sometimes used in competive sled pulling so probably do have alot of energy.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Tarheel » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:07 am

Oh My Gosh, Caninesrock! Througout your post on this subject, you continuely throw in your opinion as if it was fact. You yourself indicate how you are confused and don't know who to believe about the tamaskan dog, yet you post pictures from the internet, throwing in your 2 cents about the breed like you are some expert.
Caninesrock wrote;
" Obviously, because it's wikipedia, some information is going to be wrong and one of the photos appears to be a photo of Utongan(or however you spell that name), another wolf look a like dog."
Incorrect, Wikipedia, is a good source of information, but as most people know, anyone can write an article or edit an article on Wikipedia and change its contents. The information about Tamaskan dogs is accurate, from the last time I checked. The photos displayed on Wikipedia are in fact Tamaskan Dogs and not anything else.

"But alot of their info is wrong. For example, they state the breed orginated in Finland,but in my research it seems the founder of the breed is from the UK?"

CaninesRock, You are putting your opinion out there as fact, and you are wrong. During the creation of the breed, the founders of the breed were living in Finland. They later returned to the UK with their dogs. Some of the dogs used in the creation of the breed were Finnish Racing Huskies. I know this to be true, because I know the owners and they have told me this. What is your proof to counter that the breed founders were not in Finland?

Ash,
I promise to post about the breed and attach some pics of my dogs. These are the types of situations that give any breed a bad name. When people who think they know what they are writing about actualy don't know much if any about the breed, yet post as they are an expert.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Tarheel » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:11 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqWE53L7n8
This is a video I made of a Tamaskan DOg that goes by the stage name of Tuffy. Tuffy is a puppy from my breeding and he is now the Mascot for North Carolina State University. Tuffy is not owned by the University, but by a private party. Tuffy also spends his off season as a therapy dog at an area hospital.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmbMzzUMDDQ&context=C4b2f905ADvjVQa1PpcFP3G9fUBRiEbR1OcT6OPMOBR7R16lEkZkI=

Another video of four of my Tamaskans in our home. Blaze is a male, and the largest one who has a limp, Jaeger is also a male. The other two smaller ones are females.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:56 pm

Tarheel wrote:Oh My Gosh, Caninesrock! Througout your post on this subject, you continuely throw in your opinion as if it was fact. You yourself indicate how you are confused and don't know who to believe about the tamaskan dog, yet you post pictures from the internet, throwing in your 2 cents about the breed like you are some expert.
Caninesrock wrote;
" Obviously, because it's wikipedia, some information is going to be wrong and one of the photos appears to be a photo of Utongan(or however you spell that name), another wolf look a like dog."
Incorrect, Wikipedia, is a good source of information, but as most people know, anyone can write an article or edit an article on Wikipedia and change its contents. The information about Tamaskan dogs is accurate, from the last time I checked. The photos displayed on Wikipedia are in fact Tamaskan Dogs and not anything else.

"But alot of their info is wrong. For example, they state the breed orginated in Finland,but in my research it seems the founder of the breed is from the UK?"

CaninesRock, You are putting your opinion out there as fact, and you are wrong. During the creation of the breed, the founders of the breed were living in Finland. They later returned to the UK with their dogs. Some of the dogs used in the creation of the breed were Finnish Racing Huskies. I know this to be true, because I know the owners and they have told me this. What is your proof to counter that the breed founders were not in Finland?

Ash,
I promise to post about the breed and attach some pics of my dogs. These are the types of situations that give any breed a bad name. When people who think they know what they are writing about actualy don't know much if any about the breed, yet post as they are an expert.


Geez. Relax. I wasn't even saying anything bad about the breed. I was just answering Ash's questions and I never said my opinions were facts. You failed to noticed the question mark after stating that the founder is from the UK. I put a question mark because I wasn't sure and I was asking. Since when is something with a question mark at the end stating a fact? Also, it's not just Tamaskan dogs,but I've heard from breeders of well-established breeds that the site dogbreedinfo often has alot of incorrect information on it so I wasn't sure if it was correct or not. As for wikipedia, it was more a statement that some information on it could possibly be wrong as lot of the time wikipedia does have incorrect facts. I never said I was an expert. I was stating my opinion on what the breed is probably like based on my experiences of what the common sled dog breeds(huskies, malamutes,etc.) are like in personality. Also, you fail to notice that I said "appears to be" not "is" a untoganan. It was an innocent mistake. I've seen Utongans before that look alot like that dog. I mainly thought it was Untongan because it doesn't look like a wolf at all and that's one of the reasons I like Tamaskans better. They look more wolfy like the first 3 pictures I posted whereas the Utoganan just look like some wierd husky cross like the dog I posted above. The other two dogs I thought were Northern Inuit because they look extremely wolfy and all the images I've seen of them in the past have been more wolfy looking than the Tamaskan dogs. Also, if you are saying they're all Tamaskan dogs, there is clearly no set standard for the breed's look then because those last pictures are signicantly different in appearance from the first three I posted.

There was no need to be so rude and personallly attack me for trying to answer Ash's questions as best as I could. You took everything I said in my post totally out of context ignoring signicant things like question marks and "appears to be",which are clear indications of not being sure of something, to claim that I was saying that my opinions were facts and I was an expert or something.

Did I post some opinions in the post? Yes.
But I never claimed that they were facts. They were just that, my opinions and thoughts.

Since when is it a crime to post someone's opinions on a forum? It's a free country.

Also, why so defensive over the whole UK/Finland thing? Why does it really matter where the founder created the breed? Ok, so I got confused because I read she's from the UK and that was making me wonder if dogbreed info was correct or not,but I fail to see how it's so offensive to get confused over where the breed originated when there isn't a lot of good info on the history of the breed on the internet in the first place. I believe even the TDR site history just briefly mentions Finland so it's easy to miss.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:14 pm

Maybe she could have been nicer CaninesRock but Ash was asking her and not you as the questions included a request for pictures of her dog. So maybe her post was wasn't as nice as it could be but answering questions directed at her is a bit rude too,(I have been guilty of this before at times but it's still a rude thing to do and I've been better about it lately).

So it's a draw. So maybe just leave it at that.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:31 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Maybe she could have been nicer CaninesRock but Ash was asking her and not you as the questions included a request for pictures of her dog. So maybe her post was wasn't as nice as it could be but answering questions directed at her is a bit rude too,(I have been guilty of this before at times but it's still a rude thing to do and I've been better about it lately).

So it's a draw. So maybe just leave it at that.

I was just trying to help Ash. Also, there's a big difference between trying to answer someone else's questions and insulting and bashing someone like she did to me. And Ash never said anything to indicate that she cared who answered her questions just as long as they got answered. The thing about me is I'm a pretty easy person to get along with as long as others are nice and civil towards me but when they start to get attitudes with me like she did I have a hard time not being offended and not getting angry. Ok. So I asked questions about the legimatacy of the breed and the breeders but that doesn't give her the right to attack me personally. How is anyone supposed to ever learn anything about a breed or breeder if everytime someone asks if any negative rumors they heard are true or not, the breeders rip their heads off for an honest question? Honestly, some breeders really need to be more mature when it comes to their reactions to criticism. Attacking someone with irrevelant information only makes them look even worse than any of the criticism ever did.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:57 pm

Actually Ash did. She said she had some question if "you don't mind" and asked if "you could post photos of your dog" Since you don't even have a dog I think it's fair so say "you" in this case did not mean CaninesRock. You answered questions obviously directed at the breeder and that does make it seem like you think you can give better answers than the one who was asked. So I can see how they would think you intended your opinions to be taken as fact. You put a question mark at the end of the one sentence but you started by saying ""But a lot of their info is wrong. For example..." How is it an example of being wrong if you think it might be right? The "?" does not take away what you said and could even be assumed to be a typo since you flat out said it's an example of being wrong.

Other than starting with "oh my gosh" what exactly did she say that was rude in that post? That she disagreed about how accurate wiki is? That you answered as if you opinions were fact? because it does read that way due to how you wrote it.

And the breeder making themselves look bad might have been true if you weren't also then posting and arguing. Someone doing something to you has never made it okay to do it back. Eye for an eye has never worked.

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