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Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Wolf hybrids or other exotic species crossed with domestic

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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Tarheel » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:23 pm

I am afraid of these following scenerios occurring:

Neighbors shoot the dog, mistaking it for an actual wolf/wolf hybrid
Animal control seizes my dog, thinking it is not a dog, yet an actual wolf/wolf hybrid
Unable to safely take the dog to the vet, pet stores, or other places for fear of arrest because they look wolf-like


Never let your dog run free without you near by, If you are out in the wilderness or in the country, put an orange reflective vest on your Tamaskans. Wolves and coyotes normally don't wear Orange Vests.
Have your Tamaskan where a colar with your personal information on it. Also microchip your dog.
Any person who is considered a wolf expert can tell a Tamaskan is not a wolf, and your vet should have no problem either. All registered Tamaskans come with Registration papers, their DNA is on record through a reputable DNA lab and these records can be retrievable for identification purposes.

The TDR also introduced a Saarloos as a "one-time only" out-cross to bring some fresh blood in the breed." If this was correct isn't the saarloos a wolf dog hybrid like a Czech vlak? So wouldn't that mean that the tamaskan dog has a very tiny bit of wolf in its background? I'm not trying to cause a fight or anything here I'm just looking for clarification because I'm kind of confused.

The Saarloos and the Czech Vlak are NOT wolfdogs or wolf hybrids. Both are recognized DOG breeds, The Czech Vlak, just got its acceptance into the AKC this year. Just because they have wolf in their name does not make them hybrids. The German Shepard Dog started out as a combination of a dog and a wolf, and nobosdy freaks out about a German Shepard in their neighborhood anymore. The same goes for the Husky and a few other breeds.
It is true that a one time outcross using a Stud Saarloos was used. This particular Saarloos was used because of his look and temperament. I know the owner of the Saarloos used and he is a very loving and affectionate dog.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Realtree1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:54 pm

O ok that is true I never really thought about it that way. I wasn't really concerned about their temperament, but I'm kind of a dog breed history buff so I was just kind of curious. Thanks for clearing that up. icon-smile
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:17 am

The Saarloos and the Czech Vlak are NOT wolfdogs or wolf hybrids. Both are recognized DOG breeds, The Czech Vlak, just got its acceptance into the AKC this year. Just because they have wolf in their name does not make them hybrids. The German Shepard Dog started out as a combination of a dog and a wolf, and nobosdy freaks out about a German Shepard in their neighborhood anymore. The same goes for the Husky and a few other breeds.
It is true that a one time outcross using a Stud Saarloos was used. This particular Saarloos was used because of his look and temperament. I know the owner of the Saarloos used and he is a very loving and affectionate dog.


Saarloos and Czechs are wolfdogs. Just because they have been recognized as a breed doesn't make the fact that they have a significant amount of fairly recent wolf ancestry not true. German Shepards were founded in 1899 and the wolves were added only shortly after that.

The last wolf crossing to a Saarloos was as recent as 1921.

The last wolf crossing to a Czech Wolfdog occured as late as 1951 and unlike the Saarloos,which seems to have only had one wolf cross in the breed, the Czech wolfdog had 4 wolves crossed into the breed.

They are both wolfdogs because every other breed last had wolf in it an extremely long time ago.

Anyway, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them being wolfdogs though. I love wolfdogs.

Another more recent wolfdog breed that people often forget about is the Lupo Italiano. Gorgeous breed. I think they were founded some time in the 1960s.

Of course, one crossing to a Saarloos doesn't make a Tamaskan a wolfdog since it was only one Saarloos and it looks like they only had 1 wolf crossed into the breed to begin with. Someone who knows more about Saarloos history,please correct me if I'm wrong.

However, I would say Saarlooswolfhonds and Czech Vlacks are definitely wolfdogs,but crossing only 1 or 2 into another breed doesn't make that breed a wolfdog.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:44 pm

Actually that info is incorrect caninesrocks about the czek's and sarloo's being considered wolfdogs like the american wolfdogs that they used to call wolf hybrids, because they are not the same.

The czechoslovakian wolfdogs breed they decided to use the f5's as foundation stock, anything that is a f5 or later is considered a dog by that period, and now most of the animals are even way passed that a lot of them I've talked to animals are f8's and even further.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Splashstorm » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:36 pm

Wolfdogs arent considered wolfdogs unless they are 5 or less generations away from wolf blood. A Czech and Saarloos have as much wolf in them as German shepherds if it's true that the last wolf crossed in to the CsW was 50 yrs ago. @Cindy, do you know why wolfdogs are now being called American wolfdogs? They aren't breeding HC to HC and getting f12's while still calling them HC's are they?? Wouldnt that be wrong?
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Okay but the question that started this most recent posting was in regards to laws. Most states that ban wolf dogs do not say 5 generations or later is fine. They just say no hybrids with wolf. If they see wolf was added more recently than any AKC recognized breed they can easily confiscate the dog.

I remember a case when I was in CA. Wolfdogs are allowed but not wolves. A man's wolfdogs were confiscated because the dept decided they were pure wolves, even though he had papers from the breeder saying they were hybrid. The dept just said the breeder was lying.

If a state bans hybrids they can confiscate your dog just for looking like one and it would take a court battle to try and prove them wrong, which you most likely will fail at(especially when there is proof of fairly recent wolf blood), and even if you win people rarely get their animals back.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:28 pm

Cindy23323 wrote:Actually that info is incorrect caninesrocks about the czek's and sarloo's being considered wolfdogs like the american wolfdogs that they used to call wolf hybrids, because they are not the same.

The czechoslovakian wolfdogs breed they decided to use the f5's as foundation stock, anything that is a f5 or later is considered a dog by that period, and now most of the animals are even way passed that a lot of them I've talked to animals are f8's and even further.

But the wolf blood can't just disappear? I mean you can't deny that they had wolf bred into them in the fairly recent past(less than 100 years ago) where as a dog like say a labrador or a bulldog or a poodle has no wolf in them at all.

And anyway, like TG said, the law still views Czech Vlacks and Saarlooswolfhonds as hybrids in most places and really the law is what matters most,not science. People can recite science until they're blue in the face but if the law decides a dog has wolf in it, then they're better off to not get that dog if there is even any recent ancestry of wolves in it but the government will still confiscate the dog.

Anyway, techincally, wolfdogs aren't hybrids if you believe the scientists that reclassified dogs as a subspecies of wolf. Personally, I have a hard time seeing a poodle, bulldog, or dashund as a subspecies of wolf. The sheperd dogs and northern breeds aren't so hard to imagine being a type of wolf though.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:23 pm

Splashstorm wrote:Wolfdogs arent considered wolfdogs unless they are 5 or less generations away from wolf blood. A Czech and Saarloos have as much wolf in them as German shepherds if it's true that the last wolf crossed in to the CsW was 50 yrs ago. @Cindy, do you know why wolfdogs are now being called American wolfdogs? They aren't breeding HC to HC and getting f12's while still calling them HC's are they?? Wouldnt that be wrong?


I talk to a lot of people in different countries other then the US and they started calling them American wolfdogs as to not to confuse them with czek wolfdogs.

No never heard of anyone breeding a f12 and calling it a hc. But there's so many of those misrepresenting breeders that I'm sure would try saying they're doggie dogs were that.
I did come acrossed one person who tried to claim they're animal was high percent on paper but because it was a f7 is why it looked like a dog, lol.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:30 pm

caninesrock wrote:
Cindy23323 wrote:Actually that info is incorrect caninesrocks about the czek's and sarloo's being considered wolfdogs like the american wolfdogs that they used to call wolf hybrids, because they are not the same.

The czechoslovakian wolfdogs breed they decided to use the f5's as foundation stock, anything that is a f5 or later is considered a dog by that period, and now most of the animals are even way passed that a lot of them I've talked to animals are f8's and even further.

But the wolf blood can't just disappear? I mean you can't deny that they had wolf bred into them in the fairly recent past(less than 100 years ago) where as a dog like say a labrador or a bulldog or a poodle has no wolf in them at all.

And anyway, like TG said, the law still views Czech Vlacks and Saarlooswolfhonds as hybrids in most places and really the law is what matters most,not science. People can recite science until they're blue in the face but if the law decides a dog has wolf in it, then they're better off to not get that dog if there is even any recent ancestry of wolves in it but the government will still confiscate the dog.

Anyway, techincally, wolfdogs aren't hybrids if you believe the scientists that reclassified dogs as a subspecies of wolf. Personally, I have a hard time seeing a poodle, bulldog, or dashund as a subspecies of wolf. The sheperd dogs and northern breeds aren't so hard to imagine being a type of wolf though.



I'm fully aware that they're not hybrids, i said they used to be known as.

Also if you're going to refer to the czech wd as a wd then you would have to refer to the gsd as a wd too then wouldnt you? That 20 years isnt going to make that big of a difference. The czech's no longer have the blood in them. Unless you've came acrossed one of the breeders that got ahold of a american wd, then introduced it back into the czech line and then lied about doing so, just to make they're pups look wolfier.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:46 pm

Cindy23323 wrote:
caninesrock wrote:
Cindy23323 wrote:Actually that info is incorrect caninesrocks about the czek's and sarloo's being considered wolfdogs like the american wolfdogs that they used to call wolf hybrids, because they are not the same.

The czechoslovakian wolfdogs breed they decided to use the f5's as foundation stock, anything that is a f5 or later is considered a dog by that period, and now most of the animals are even way passed that a lot of them I've talked to animals are f8's and even further.

But the wolf blood can't just disappear? I mean you can't deny that they had wolf bred into them in the fairly recent past(less than 100 years ago) where as a dog like say a labrador or a bulldog or a poodle has no wolf in them at all.

And anyway, like TG said, the law still views Czech Vlacks and Saarlooswolfhonds as hybrids in most places and really the law is what matters most,not science. People can recite science until they're blue in the face but if the law decides a dog has wolf in it, then they're better off to not get that dog if there is even any recent ancestry of wolves in it but the government will still confiscate the dog.

Anyway, techincally, wolfdogs aren't hybrids if you believe the scientists that reclassified dogs as a subspecies of wolf. Personally, I have a hard time seeing a poodle, bulldog, or dashund as a subspecies of wolf. The sheperd dogs and northern breeds aren't so hard to imagine being a type of wolf though.



I'm fully aware that they're not hybrids, i said they used to be known as.

Also if you're going to refer to the czech wd as a wd then you would have to refer to the gsd as a wd too then wouldnt you? That 20 years isnt going to make that big of a difference. The czech's no longer have the blood in them. Unless you've came acrossed one of the breeders that got ahold of a american wd, then introduced it back into the czech line and then lied about doing so, just to make they're pups look wolfier.

I call them Czech Wolfdog because that's the american name for them. I own about 6 or 7 different dog breed books and all of those that they are in refer to them as "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs". I didn't learn about the word Vlack until I came on the internet. I would say there's a huge difference between 100 years and 20 years since the last wolf. Even the Czech Wolfdog fans themselves, named their forum Wolfdog.org. As for German Shepard, I refer to them as German Shepards because that's the american name for them. I know some people in Europe still call them the "Aslation"(though the original name of "Aslation Wolfdog" is rarely used now-a-days as far as I know). Also, none of my dog breed books mention anything about the German Shepard dogs having wolf in their ancestry,but all of them make a point that the Czech Wolfdogs have recent wolf ancestry and should belong to someone whose a very experienced handler because they still maintain many of their wolf-like instincts and behaviors. The German Shepards, on the other hand, don't require too terribly experienced owners and don't really have anymore wolf-like behaviors than other breeds of dog do.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Wolf ancestry in GSD is debatable anyway.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:23 am

Caninesrock are you even taking the time to read properly what i wrote?? I never said it was 20 years sense the last wolf blood was entered, I said there was only a 20 year difference between the two, not the czek wd only being around for 20 years old, but that they're over a 90 year old breed and beings thats the case the wolf blood would still not be around, just like the gsd. So thats 112 and 90 years old on the two lines technically.
The group named them that because that was the original name for them years ago. Same as you mentioned with the gsd's having the orignal name Alsatian wolfdog.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:29 am

Also you really shouldnt go on acting like you know everything about all these different animals just because you read some books. Have you ever owned any of these or the other animals that you go on about acting like you know everything about them??? Just because you read something doesnt make you an expert on them, especially without owning the particular animal. I've seen you do it alot now with different breeds and species.
Heck I've read stuff from several people who dont know what they're talking about, in fact some even claim huskies have wolf in them, yet huskies are a very ancient breed with absolutely no wolf in them.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Ciaobella » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:41 am

Cindy23323 wrote:Also you really shouldnt go on acting like you know everything about all these different animals just because you read some books. Have you ever owned any of these or the other animals that you go on about acting like you know everything about them??? Just because you read something doesnt make you an expert on them, especially without owning the particular animal. I've seen you do it alot now with different breeds and species.
Heck I've read stuff from several people who dont know what they're talking about, in fact some even claim huskies have wolf in them, yet huskies are a very ancient breed with absolutely no wolf in them.



THIS. I totally agree.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:51 pm

Was the earlier info false?
German Shepards were founded in 1899 and the wolves were added only shortly after that.

The last wolf crossing to a Czech Wolfdog occured as late as 1951 and unlike the Saarloos,which seems to have only had one wolf cross in the breed, the Czech wolfdog had 4 wolves crossed into the breed.


Because that is more like 50 years difference.

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