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Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Wolf hybrids or other exotic species crossed with domestic

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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:53 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Was the earlier info false?
German Shepards were founded in 1899 and the wolves were added only shortly after that.

The last wolf crossing to a Czech Wolfdog occured as late as 1951 and unlike the Saarloos,which seems to have only had one wolf cross in the breed, the Czech wolfdog had 4 wolves crossed into the breed.


Because that is more like 50 years difference.


If you read around you're going to find dozens of different info on when the last wolf blood was actually added.
Thats my entire point of stating you can not believe everything you read, just because it is written. If thats the case boy there's some freaky stuff going on out there according to the enquire papers.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:03 pm

Yeah didn't look into it much but a lot was left up in the air as far as there not being any evidence so people people can assume whatever they want, as far as GSDs anyway.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:27 pm

Cindy23323 wrote:Caninesrock are you even taking the time to read properly what i wrote?? I never said it was 20 years sense the last wolf blood was entered, I said there was only a 20 year difference between the two, not the czek wd only being around for 20 years old, but that they're over a 90 year old breed and beings thats the case the wolf blood would still not be around, just like the gsd. So thats 112 and 90 years old on the two lines technically.

This is the site that has the german shepard's founding dogs. It doesn't even give the breeds of the dogs so it's hard to tell if they are actually wolfdogs.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_ ... &p=progeny

My books say they were recognized as a breed in 1899. In most cases, once a breed is recognized, people only breed the breed to another of its breed and not an outcross(with some exception of course).

And I did read it,but your wording was confusing. It sounded like you were saying it had only been 20 years.


Anyway, even if we go by when the breeds were officially recognized, 1899 for the German Shepard and 1955 for the Czech Wolfdog are a huge difference. That's a 56 year difference,not a 20 year difference.

Not to mention that it's been confirmed and admitted that Czech Wolfdogs have wolf blood in them but that hasn't been the case with GSD. Czech Wolfdogs owners and breeders will tell you its true,but GSD owners and breeders will swear up and down that those are just rumors(much like the case with Tamaskan today). Anyway, the only place people have ever been able to give as reference so far as them supposedly having wolf in them is the site I linked to above. It does give a history of the dogs used in breeding,but no where does it say anything about what breed those dogs are.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:51 pm

Cindy23323 wrote:Also you really shouldnt go on acting like you know everything about all these different animals just because you read some books. Have you ever owned any of these or the other animals that you go on about acting like you know everything about them??? Just because you read something doesnt make you an expert on them, especially without owning the particular animal. I've seen you do it alot now with different breeds and species.
Heck I've read stuff from several people who dont know what they're talking about, in fact some even claim huskies have wolf in them, yet huskies are a very ancient breed with absolutely no wolf in them.

I haven't owned them,but I've volunteered at a wolf sanctuary with wolves and wolfdogs for a little over 2 years. I've done a lot of research on the animals because I want to own them in the future,but it's not exactly easy to find Czech Wolfdogs or Tamaskans for sale in the US. If it was and state laws weren't so stupid, then I would have some by now. I have never claimed to know about animals I haven't researched. Yes, I have claimed to know about wolves/wolfdogs(but I've volunteered with them,watched numerous documentaries on them, read many nonfiction books on them,etc.), coatimundi(I've read care sheets on various respectable breeder sites, watched their behavior at zoos,etc.),kinkajou(haven't unfortunately had the chance to see any live but I have read numerous breeder caresheets and testimonials on them, a scientific report on their behavior in the wild,kindly linked to for me by TG),sugar gliders(same as kinkajou,except nothing on behavior in the wild),my aunt has owned so many cats it isn't even funny and I have interacted with them all, my dad owned at least 3 rabbits that I interacted with, my other aunt owned a parrot that I interacted with, etc. I have never claimed that I'm an expert about any of the other animals I'm intersted in. I have stated before that although I am very interested in golden jackals, coydogs, polecats, four-eyed possums, squirrels,etc., I know nothing or little about them becuase there is little info out there on them. Anyway, just because someone owns a breed doesn't make them an expert on its history. I used to own a boxer and a lab,but I know little about their history other than the country where the breed was founded and most owners of dog breeds(especially popular dog breeds), know nothing of the breed's history either. True,they'll know of the breed's behavior because they'll have firsthand experience,but the question at hand was not of the behavior of the said breeds,but of their history and genetics and as TG said, there is no solid proof that GSD actually have wolf in them which explains why so many sources say so many different thing about when the last wolf was added. As for getting info from books, it's called doing research and most in the education industry consider it a reliable and credible way to know what you are talking about. I know about the husky rumors,but I have never said anything myself about husky's having wolf in them. Anyway, how do we know that German Shepards have wolf in them? Where's the proof? Anyway, there's a big difference between reading stuff on the internet and reading stuff from published,nonfiction books for fact. I can provide you with a list of my book and film references if you wish as well as the name of and website of the sanctuary I volunteered at and the zoos I've seen coatimundi at, the breeder websites and caresheets I've read,etc. Most scholars if for your reasearch you told them you talked to some people who owned an animal,they'd laugh at you unless you had proof that the owners knew enough about the animal or breed to be an expert. Just look at how many anti-exotics people for example don't think exotic pet owners know what they're doing just because they own the animal.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:06 pm

You say you know about wolfdogs yet make false claims of breeds of wolfdogs claiming theres a wolfamute and wolfadore, when there is no such thing except for the acception of some back yard breeders breeding mutt pups and trying to name them a fancy name to sell the pups. As I stated in another post its nothing more different then if I was to take Selene and breed her to a shitzu and call the pups wolfshit to try and sell them for big bucks.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:36 pm

Here. I've gathered my references on everything I know about wolves from for you:

http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Legend-Rebec ... 127&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Dogs-Wolves- ... 178&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Wolf-Shaun ... 233&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Living-With-Wolfm ... 272&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Among-Wolves- ... d_cp_mov_0

http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-A-Legend-R ... d_cp_mov_3

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wolf-Almanac- ... _mov_img_b

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Wolves-Our ... d_cp_mov_2

http://www.amazon.com/Foxes-Wolves-Wild ... 412&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rise-of-Black ... 457&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Wildlife-Survivor ... 5&sr=1-124

http://www.amazon.com/Marty-Stouffers-W ... _sbs_mov_1

http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Up-Wilder ... 6&sr=1-215

http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-DVD/dp/B00 ... 15&sr=1-27

http://www.amazon.com/National-Geograph ... 57&sr=1-31

http://www.amazon.com/Marty-Stouffers-W ... 80&sr=1-51

http://www.amazon.com/Jaws-Claws-Wild-F ... 53&sr=1-72

http://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Readers-Dig ... 41&sr=1-45

http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-Behavior-C ... pd_sim_b_8

http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Mountain-M ... d_sim_b_19

http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-Our-Door-E ... pd_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Kinship-Wolf-Amaz ... 820&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Never-Cry-Wolf-Am ... 86&sr=1-15

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Among-Wolve ... 12&sr=1-19

http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Spirit-Celeb ... 89&sr=1-75

http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-World-Worl ... 0&sr=1-131

http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Wolves-Ri ... 8&sr=1-143

http://www.amazon.com/Decade-Wolf-Retur ... 3&sr=1-308

http://www.amazon.com/The-Philosopher-W ... 7&sr=1-404

http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Anne-Menator ... 8&sr=1-586

http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Dogs-Zoobook ... =1-1-spell

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-EYEWITNESS-BK ... 342&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Book-Wolves- ... 66&sr=1-10

http://www.wolf.org/wolves/index.asp

http://www.canids.org/

http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/

http://www.raincoast.org/projects/wolves/

http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/nature/eep-sar/ ... sar5f.aspx

http://wilddog.hypermart.net/Home/Wild_ ... /index.htm

http://texx-wolf-tails.webs.com/misrepresentation.htm

http://www.wolfpark.org/ccpage2.shtml

http://www.mexicanwolves.org/

Also,when I lived in Houston I attended the November 12 version of this event. Unfortunately,the first version was only for age 21 and older since it had alchohol there.

http://www.houstonzoo.org/en/rel/383/

And this is the wolf sanctuary I volunteered at. It has mostly wolfdogs more so than wolves:

http://www.saintfrancissanctuary.org/

Yeah, I know some on that list are pictures books and kid's documentaries,but that's becuase I've been reading/watching stuff on wolves since I was like 5.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:44 pm

Cindy23323 wrote:You say you know about wolfdogs yet make false claims of breeds of wolfdogs claiming theres a wolfamute and wolfadore, when there is no such thing except for the acception of some back yard breeders breeding mutt pups and trying to name them a fancy name to sell the pups. As I stated in another post its nothing more different then if I was to take Selene and breed her to a shitzu and call the pups wolfshit to try and sell them for big bucks.

Those are from www.dogbreedinfo.com. That was before I knew that that site had wrong information. Anyway, there are such a thing as Wol-a-mutes(They just aren't called that),but they are basically just wolves crossed to malamute dogs and lots of wolfdog breeders do that. As for wolador, I haven't found any information on them besides on dogbreedinfo.com so they seem to be fake.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/w/wolador.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/wolamute.htm

Anyway, since then, I've learned only trust sites with ".org" in their address for the most part since then. Though some, like retrieverman's blog seem credible enough to me in spite of not having ".org" in his address:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/ ... f-species/

http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/ ... -wolf-dog/
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:03 pm

I made a new post in the "Favorite Wolfdog Breed" topic to help clarify things and clear some things up.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby sarajeku » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:23 pm

Generally, unless I can see the scientific sources cited, I don't believe anything I read, especially online. I say generally, because there are a few exceptions, like the wolf park website, which I know to be credible.

Also, even in non-fiction books, the information isn't always 100% accurate and it isn't always double checked by "experts." Sometimes it's even misquoted to fit the author's objective (for example in this book http://www.amazon.com/Behaviour-Evolution-Cognition-Oxford-Biology/dp/0199295859). It essentially says the same thing over and over again: "wolves and dogs are the same, but they're different, but here's how they're the same. But wait! They're different! And the same!" It even cites scientific sources, but cites them to show how his own point of view is right. :roll:

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents & say you need to be skeptical of everything. Even science. lol
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:40 pm

sarajeku wrote:Generally, unless I can see the scientific sources cited, I don't believe anything I read, especially online. I say generally, because there are a few exceptions, like the wolf park website, which I know to be credible.

Also, even in non-fiction books, the information isn't always 100% accurate and it isn't always double checked by "experts." Sometimes it's even misquoted to fit the author's objective (for example in this book http://www.amazon.com/Behaviour-Evolution-Cognition-Oxford-Biology/dp/0199295859). It essentially says the same thing over and over again: "wolves and dogs are the same, but they're different, but here's how they're the same. But wait! They're different! And the same!" It even cites scientific sources, but cites them to show how his own point of view is right. :roll:

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents & say you need to be skeptical of everything. Even science. lol

Well, that is kind of wierd that he says it over and over but it's sort of true. They're both canines. Lol. XD But then, one is wild and the other is domestic so that makes them different. :lol:

I have read/watched alot of references though as you can see from the post above and atleast some of them must be right.

Yeah, except for the dogbreedinfo incident :red-face: (Oops.), I don't usually trust info on most sites. Most of my info is from actual nonfiction books and documentaries. Well,sometimes they don't need to be double checked by experts because the author of them might already be an expert like the ones by David L. Mech or the ones by Shaun Ellis(maybe a more unconvential and slightly cooku expert,but still even scientists that think he's nuts have agreed that he's given some interesting incites to wolf behaviors by actually living as one of them), etc.

Other "experts" like Farley Mowart are kind of debateable though. Some people even claimed he made up the stuff in his book so you never really know for sure if any sources are right I guess.

Then,of course there is controversy on what exactly an expert is. Some say that anyone who knows alot of book facts about something is an expert regardless of firsthand knowlegde, while others say only anyone whose written a nonfiction book with reputable sources is an expert even if they have no firsthand knowlegde, some say that someone is an expert only if they had a PHD in science and write about the animal, some say they had to have studied the animal in the wild, and yet others say they have to interact with animals directly in order to be an expert. There really is no clear-cut definition of what an expert is.

I don't consider myself an expert in anyway. I just love learning about wolves, wolfdogs,and wolf-look-alike dogs and sharing what I've learned with others.

As for who I do consider an expert, it depends on the individual really. Someone can write a really fasicnating and facutally accurate book about wolves but have never directly interacted with them and I'd probably consider them an expert over someone who actually owned a wolfdog or wolf for a pet if they mistreated the animal. Most of the time, however, I tend to go with people who have studied the animals in the wild. Obviously, in most cases, wolfdogs aren't wild though. So, in that case, I'd probably go with a sanctuary owner,zoo owner, or legimate breeder(someone whose owned alot of wolfdogs) and some of the more trustworthy,responsible wolfdog owners.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Ciaobella » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:17 pm

caninesrock wrote:I don't consider myself an expert in anyway. I just love learning about wolves, wolfdogs,and wolf-look-alike dogs and sharing what I've learned with others.


Honestly that's not the vibe I get from you. I understand wanting to share information you may have read up on but what you were doing on this thread and a few others was not sharing but more like "telling" as if your opinions were fact. I too have studied up on animals but I am in no way going to state things that I may believe are true because I read about someone elses experience and argue down people who do actually have the years of HANDS ON EXPERIENCE as I've seen you do atleast twice on this thread.

It's good you are reading up on these animals you want to own and volunteering but I can tell you it's nothing like hands on experience and living with that animal 24/7.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:55 pm

Ciaobella wrote:
caninesrock wrote:Honestly that's not the vibe I get from you. I understand wanting to share information you may have read up on but what you were doing on this thread and a few others was not sharing but more like "telling" as if your opinions were fact. I too have studied up on animals but I am in no way going to state things that I may believe are true because I read about someone elses experience and argue down people who do actually have the years of HANDS ON EXPERIENCE as I've seen you do atleast twice on this thread.

It's good you are reading up on these animals you want to own and volunteering but I can tell you it's nothing like hands on experience and living with that animal 24/7.


If it is something I read up on from reliable sources,then it is not my opinions,but facts. I state them as facts because they are facts. For example, many of my books say wolves live in packs. If I say wolves live in packs, that is not my opinion,but a well-known fact. Also, volunteering is hands-on-experience. If someone else has alot of experience, why wouldn't you believe what they say as facts? I would definitely personally consider anything said by say a wolf biologist for example, a fact and wouldn't see anything wrong with sharing it as a fact. It must be true since being a biologist and all, they must be an expert or one would hope anyway. As for merely owning animals making someone an expert though, I don't neccessarily agree with that. Look how many people in the world own domestic dogs yet many,many people don't understand them as shown by how many dogs end up abadoned or in shelters or rescues.

It is a fact that Czech Wolfdogs weren't recognized until 1955,while German Shepards were recognized in 1899. It is also a fact that there is no real proof of GSD having wolf ancestry and that that progency list(or atleast the version of it provided online that I linked to) doesn't name the breeds of any of those dogs to prove whether or not they were wolves,wolfdogs, or merely wolfy-looking dogs.

It is also a fact that there is alot of contorversy claiming that Tamaskans have wolf in them. And even one supposed DNA test that confirms this, though so far, no one's actually been able to confirm if the said test really does exsist or not though. If it does exsist though, that would pretty much make it a confirmed fact that Tamaskans do have wolf in them since DNA doesn't lie when it comes to the identity of invidiauls even if it is occassionally misleading at a species/subspecies level.

It is fact that the Tamaskan is almost completely made up of northern/sled dog breeds. This fact is even stated on the official TDR website. Breed experts say that crossbreeds will usually have traits of one or more of their parents. Since nearly all of the breeds in the Tamaskan are sled dog breeds(and there is a large amount of husky in them), I think it is fair to assume that they have simliar personalities to huskies. Other aspects of huskies have certainly popped through in them being able to be used as sled dogs in competitions and the like.

Also,again, here in this thread, the main question is about genetics,not behavior. Someone who has hands on experience can be very knowlegde about the said animals behavior but that doesn't necessarily mean they know anything about its genetics. Really,other than the founder of the breed and genetists, no one is an expert about what genetics a dog breed has in it.

I don't doubt that Taarheel is a trustworthy breeder or that he takes good care his dogs after seeing his videos and comments here. However, unless he was there when the founder first started creating the breed, was the founder of the breed himself(which I know he is not),or had a DNA test done on his dogs,he can not know for sure whether or not there is any wolf in the Tamaskan. Same with how I don't doubt that Cindy is an excellent wolfdog owner and so are the Czech Wofldogs owners she talked with and she(or they) may have owned German Shepards as well for all I know,but that doesn't mean that they can possibly know whether or not GSDs have wolf in them unless they were able to get a DNA test linking the dogs to an individual wolf or wolfdogs,were there when the breed was founded, or were the founder themselves.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:17 am

caninesrock wrote:
Cindy23323 wrote:You say you know about wolfdogs yet make false claims of breeds of wolfdogs claiming theres a wolfamute and wolfadore, when there is no such thing except for the acception of some back yard breeders breeding mutt pups and trying to name them a fancy name to sell the pups. As I stated in another post its nothing more different then if I was to take Selene and breed her to a shitzu and call the pups wolfshit to try and sell them for big bucks.

Those are from http://www.dogbreedinfo.com. That was before I knew that that site had wrong information. Anyway, there are such a thing as Wol-a-mutes(They just aren't called that),but they are basically just wolves crossed to malamute dogs and lots of wolfdog breeders do that. As for wolador, I haven't found any information on them besides on dogbreedinfo.com so they seem to be fake.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/w/wolador.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/wolamute.htm

Anyway, since then, I've learned only trust sites with ".org" in their address for the most part since then. Though some, like retrieverman's blog seem credible enough to me in spite of not having ".org" in his address:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/ ... f-species/

http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/ ... -wolf-dog/


Your right a lot of people do breed wolfdogs with malamute in them. Heck my two have a little malamute in them but they arent some fake name called Wolamute. They are just high content wolfdogs.
You are just giving these misrepresenting back yard breeders more power by using they're fake names they made up.
Wolamute was made up by one of the worst out there, by http://www.wolfhuskypups.com/ click on they're link http://wolamutes.com/ notice its the same. They have been fought for years in the wd world, they're one of the biggest misrepresenting liars out there. They will not even give you they're correct name. If you go threw all the pages of this blog you will see where this guy has dealt with them for years, theres tons of posts about them http://wolfdogmyths.blogspot.com/

Also you can not believe everything you read in books, not just online. Have you ever read anything written by Shaun Ellis? Ignore that question I see by all the movies and books you listed that you have. He gives tons of misinformation and incorrect things in his books. He even gives out down right dangerous advice in alot of his stuff. "To be accepted by wolves and become part of the pack you must not bathe for a week, wear dirty clothes. Get down on all four and eat the raw kill with them" Thats just straight up nuts, and totally untrue. As anyone who has raised these type of animals already know. He's one of the biggest jokes out there in the wolf/wolfdog world. Do you believe everything you read in the tabloits also? (not being a smart a@$, just making a joke ;) )

Also about the facts and the scientist. They can't seem to get they're facts straight.
You have one group of scientist saying they're not hybrids that they're the same species. Thats why the names were changed. Just for the record I say they're not hybrids and agree with these guys.
Then over here you have another group of them stating they are hybrids. And heres they're excuse. A hybrid is not just different species but a mix of different sub species. Now go look up the defintion for hybrid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

Here's a small copy paste from that link, the first sentence covers they're argument.
1.Hybrids between different subspecies within a species (such as between the Bengal tiger and Siberian tiger) are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different species within the same genus (such as between lions and tigers) are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different genera (such as between sheep and goats) are known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).[3] No interordinal (between different orders) animal hybrids are known.
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Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby Ciaobella » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:56 pm

I'm not going to doubt you know a thing or two about wolves based on having some volunteering experience. I agree that not every dog owner is an expert. BUT what I am talking about kind of mirrors what Cindy is saying. You can't go look something up then call it fact. Just because you read it in a book DOES NOT make it true. Just because you read a few things on the internet DOES NOT make it true.

I'm not sure how to get my point across here because I'm not exactly sure how to put it. All I can say is that just because you have some volunteer experience with one or two exotic species, doesn't make you expert on all.
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caninesrock
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:59 am
Location: Texas

Re: Tamaskan Dogs. Wolf in them or not?

Postby caninesrock » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:20 pm

Cindy23323 wrote:Your right a lot of people do breed wolfdogs with malamute in them. Heck my two have a little malamute in them but they arent some fake name called Wolamute. They are just high content wolfdogs.
You are just giving these misrepresenting back yard breeders more power by using they're fake names they made up.
Wolamute was made up by one of the worst out there, by http://www.wolfhuskypups.com/ click on they're link http://wolamutes.com/ notice its the same. They have been fought for years in the wd world, they're one of the biggest misrepresenting liars out there. They will not even give you they're correct name. If you go threw all the pages of this blog you will see where this guy has dealt with them for years, theres tons of posts about them http://wolfdogmyths.blogspot.com/

Also you can not believe everything you read in books, not just online. Have you ever read anything written by Shaun Ellis? Ignore that question I see by all the movies and books you listed that you have. He gives tons of misinformation and incorrect things in his books. He even gives out down right dangerous advice in alot of his stuff. "To be accepted by wolves and become part of the pack you must not bathe for a week, wear dirty clothes. Get down on all four and eat the raw kill with them" Thats just straight up nuts, and totally untrue. As anyone who has raised these type of animals already know. He's one of the biggest jokes out there in the wolf/wolfdog world. Do you believe everything you read in the tabloits also? (not being a smart a@$, just making a joke ;) )

Also about the facts and the scientist. They can't seem to get they're facts straight.
You have one group of scientist saying they're not hybrids that they're the same species. Thats why the names were changed. Just for the record I say they're not hybrids and agree with these guys.
Then over here you have another group of them stating they are hybrids. And heres they're excuse. A hybrid is not just different species but a mix of different sub species. Now go look up the defintion for hybrid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

Here's a small copy paste from that link, the first sentence covers they're argument.
1.Hybrids between different subspecies within a species (such as between the Bengal tiger and Siberian tiger) are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different species within the same genus (such as between lions and tigers) are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different genera (such as between sheep and goats) are known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).[3] No interordinal (between different orders) animal hybrids are known.

Ok. Sorry. I didn't know it was a name originally invented by scam artists. Are there any legimate breeders of mid or low-content wolf-malamute mixes?

Do you know anything about Watson's wolves?
http://www.watsonswolves.com/

Would you say his dogs are low-content malamute mix or no contents(maybe Northern Inuit Dogs) that he's just scamming people with?

I don't doubt what Shaun does is nuts and dangerous and also doesn't have to be done to be accepted by wolves. However, what it does do, as even admitted by some scientists who think he's insane, is give interesting and intimate incites into the inner workings of wolf society and heiracy that have never been fully experienced even by people who live among wolves but not as wolves. That being said, I do think he's off his rocker and probably going to end up dead(just like poor Steve Irwin. God rest his soul.),but atleast he seems to support ownership of and human interaction with wolves which is more than can be said for alot of "experts" and atlleast he seems to genuinley love wolves(albiet a little too much) and doesn't mistreat them like those puppymills and scammers you mentioned do(although most of the time those are really just dogs anyway,but still).

As for tabloids,I love to read that really crazy one about the end of the world and Batboy and stuff. I think it's called "The Sun" or something like that. I don't believe it though. :mrgreen: I just gives me a nice entertaining laugh. :lol:

I don't know what I personally believe about hybrids. I do know though that in the conservation world(and especially the captive conservation world like zoos), that subspecies hybrids are considered almost as horrible if not as horrible as species level hybrids as most in conservation are trying to perserve at a subspecies level. I can't say I blame them. I for one wouldn't like to see the beautiful Mexican Gray Wolf subspecies go extinct because it's considered alright to crossbreed it with another more common subspecies of wolf just because they are the same species.

Then again, I do love some species level hybrids such as zorse(horse x zebra) and liger(lion x tiger),but to be fair, horses are nowhere near endangered,and zebra, lions,and tigers,though still endangered in the wild, have excellent even surplus numbers in captivity so the pure ones aren't in danger of fading out of exsistance. Mexican Gray Wolves,however, have only 300 in captivity with only about 50 in the wild.

Of course, I don't mind wolfdogs or wolf subspecies x wolf subspecies crosses that use non-endangered wolf subspecies though.
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

Domestic Wishlist: dogs, cats, ferrets, donkey, mule

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