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Vaccines

For species less common than reds and arctics.

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Vaccines

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue May 09, 2017 5:37 pm

These turn out to be a bit of a sticky wicket with fennec and grays and pretty much any more exotic fox that this sub forum is for.

Parvo: Due to my research indicating foxes likely do not become sick with parvo I have decided not to give a parvo vaccine since there is no killed or reccombinant form. FPV comes in killed and reccombinant and should give protection BUT they do not come in a monovalent vaccine, all are combo. If someone really wanted to give it Fel-O-Vax PCT + Calicivax™ is killed so should be safe but still don't like that it's a combo(Rhinotracheitis, Calicivirus, and Panleukopenia, though the extras are not things at risk of getting so should make it okay to give but combos are hard on fennecs but would not catch anything from it at least) and the info available indicates they may not be at any real risk from parvo/fpv anyway. Most risk giving the modified live form and they don't come down with parvo from it, probably since they aren't at risk of getting it anyway. But I'm not telling anyone not to give something just saying I have chosen not to. All the fennec info says only give monvalent vaccines and only killed or reccominant but there isn't one.

Distemper: Fennecs and gray HAVE gotten distemper from modified live shots so that is a big no no. There is no monovalent killed or reccombinant canine disteper. RECOMBITEK rDistemper was a monovalent recombinant but they stopped making it. RECOMBITEK C4 Distemper or C3 is what most give. C4 was shown to be safe in gray foxes in some wild studies, as far as not catching distemper from it and survival of those tested. BUT These have modified live Adeno virus in them, which is known to cause encephalitis in foxes, obviously just a percentage or no one would give it but it does. Edit: A fennec also died from Adenovirus in 2013./edit In hindsight this is likely what killed Fizzgig the gray fox who died after her recombitek distemper shot from illness and seizures(so suspected distemper at the time but high likelihood it was the adeno).

So after discussing it with my vet and my vet discussion it with a zoo vet who works with fennecs and agreed, we are giving no vaccines other than rabies(though rabies isn't technically needed either if not kept outside it's a small safety net against people who might be concerned). Like I said most give the Recombitek due to not knowing the finer details and are fine but a percent can and do die because of these shots and I would die if Ikigai died due to a shot I chose to give.

Both choices are a risk but exposure is a risk I can mitigate, since not being kept outside for potential exposure to wild critters and their poop. Distemper is spread more like flu from bodily fluids and does not live long in the environment(unlike parvo) as sun kills it quickly, only lives 3-4 hours at room tempt. Also Julie's Jungle gives no vaccines and hers do live outside and have been fine. The main thing is to keep wildlife away to stop exposure. But I'm just hanging off this one side of the fence here. Could change my mind if there were a close outbreak and will keep an eye out for an adeno free alternative to pop up.
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Re: Vaccines

Postby GitaBooks » Thu May 11, 2017 10:50 am

Great information. Thanks! : )
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Re: Vaccines

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu May 11, 2017 11:08 pm

Thank you. It's a tough decision. The more info the better. If I had some outside fox, like breeders, I would probably chance the vaccine since we have raccoons in the neighborhood but would still be a tough call.

PureVax Ferret Distemper was a recombinat and monovalent but is no longer available in the US but is in Canada. Not sure how I'd get a hold of that though and would have to give it myself since the vet couldn't legally since not approved for US use. https://merialce.cvpservice.com/product ... ew/1182076
It was the old MLV ferret vaccines that fennec owners had problems with in the past, rather than this version. I think the issue was it didn't have high enough titers when given to pass US laws but did for Canada apparently.

---
I saw someone saying it's not possible to get a disease from a MLV vaccine. There are proven cases of vaccine induced disease in foxes and other species as well, plus there's plenty of correlation and most vets agree, so yes it is possible and plenty of cases in pier reviewed papers where it's believed the be the vaccine. So for any doubters:

Gray foxes vaccinated with MLV contract distemper in a lab study(no risk of other source of infection besides the shot, so proven).
Halbrooks, R. D., L. J. Swango, P. R. Schnurrenberger, F. E. Mitchell, and E. P. Hill. 1981. Response of gray foxes to modified live-virus canine distemper vaccines. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc 179:1170–1174. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/719 ... t=Abstract

Toxo kills fennec after being given a MLV combo shot, it is within the incubation window from time of shot but may have had other exposure but female he was with did not get the shot and did not get sick: http://www.jaaha.org/doi/abs/10.5326/0400501
If you download the article it has autopsy photos.



other species with pier reviewed papers on vaccine induced infections

DNA test proven vaccine induced Adeno: HEMORRHAGIC AND NECROTIZING HEPATITIS ASSOCIATED WITH ADMINISTRATION OF A MODIFIED LIVE CANINE ADENOVIRUS-2 VACCINE IN A MANED WOLF (CHRYSOCYON BRACHYURUS). Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 43:2, 375-383.
Online publication date: 22-Jun-2012.
http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1638/2011-0192.1

Vaccine-induced canine distemper in European mink, Mustela lutreola. J. Zoo Wildl. Med 28:312–318. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20095664?se ... b_contents
Whole study on link

Vaccination-induced distemper in maned wolves, vaccination-induced corneal opacity in a maned wolf. Proc. Am. Assoc. Zoo Vet 1985:53.

Vaccine-induced canine distemper in a lesser panda. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc 169:959–960. PubMed

Fatal vaccine-induced canine distemper virus infection in black-footed ferrets. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc 169:961–964.

Vaccine-associated canine distemper infection in a litter of African hunting dogs (Lycaon pictus). J. Med., Series B. 37:203–212. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20094641

An outbreak of post-vaccinal suspected distemper-like encephalitis in farmed ferrets (Mustela putorius furo). N. Z. Vet. J 36:173–176.

Effects of a modified-live virus canine distemper vaccine on captive badgers (Taxidea taxus). J. Wildl. Dis 30:492–496

Vaccination-induced distemper in kinkajous. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc 179:1166–1169 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/719 ... t=Abstract

Possible vaccine-induced canine distemper in a South American bush dog (Speothos venaticus). J. Wildl. Dis 28:614–617.

Also: Vaccination for canine adenovirus 1 (cav1) is known to cause encephalitis in foxes. - Fowler’s Zoo and Wild Animal Medicine Volume 8: VACCINATION OF DOMESTIC AND NONDOMESTIC CANIDS

Now that would indicate it's giving it to them as adenovirus infection in foxes presents as encephalitis.

"Foxes (including the fennec) differ from other canines in their response to canine adenovirus (CAV-1). In foxes CAV-1 manifests primarily as “fox encephalitis” and results in central nervous system (CNS) signs and alterations in behavior." - MISCELLANEOUS SMALL MAMMAL BEHAVIOR
DAN H. JOHNSON, in Exotic Pet Behavior, 2006.

"Canine adenovirus 1, which can cause a life-threatening hepatitis in dogs, seems to be an exception and has caused encephalitis epizootics in foxes" - Adenoviruses: General Features☆ B. Harrach, in Reference Module in Biomedical Sciences, 2014.
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Re: Vaccines

Postby pat » Fri May 12, 2017 6:52 am

mary,

great info. vaccines are a tough decision. I don't think all vaccines are needed.
to be honest, my foxes and raccoons did get rabies and distemper vaccines for their first year. (feline for raccoons first year) .

I also feel if the animal is kept in an enclosure, chances are slim they would get rabies or other diseases.
I shouldn't speak too soon, but, none of my foxes or raccoons ever got any type of rabies or distemper in 14 years.
As you know , dogs should get rabies and distemper vaccines.

now I have to wonder, for the owners that take their exotics outside for walks and they don't have rabies and distemper vaccines, seems they would stand a better chance of getting rabies or other disease.

The other issue with animals are ticks. This year is suppose to be bad, and carry a new disease. However, being in an enclosure would lesson the chance of ticks. so far, none of mine had ticks. only my dogs.

Thank you for posting the great info.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

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Re: Vaccines

Postby Juska » Fri May 12, 2017 10:06 am

My friend's border collie mix had a really nasty reaction to the distemper vaccine they gave him when he was younger.

The animals that can carry distemper either don't live where we do, or the chance that our dogs would come into contact with one is very rare. I have never heard of a distemper-infected animal being found in our area. Same with parvo and rabies, but they need to have the rabies shot here in PA or we could get fined. Not that infection couldn't happen, but it's so rare, I really don't see those as a threat. The dogs rarely leave our property so they have very little contact with any animals. Plus, they are both over 10 years old now, and the vaccine could do more harm than good just from getting the shot.

Emo did get Lyme disease last year, and I wasn't even aware there was a Lyme vaccine available for dogs at the time. But apparently the Lyme vaccine is like a flu shot, it may not stop infection, and it can send the dog's immune system into overdrive/infect them which, at their ages, isn't a risk I'm willing to take.

It sucks that the vaccines for foxes can be so dangerous to them. If that were not such a huge problem, I think the general public's fear of exotics wouldn't be as bad. Or...if the laws changed to represent the real state of disease occurrence so people wouldn't be so freaked out about infection/outbreak when it's really not a problem anymore. Especially for exotics. They have much, much less of a chance of contracting any of those diseases than a domestic dog or cat that's given access to the outdoors...exotic owners shouldn't need a "safety net" from uneducated people. icon_confused.gif

And maybe that moronic myth that some animals are born with rabies or whatever would dissipate :wall:

That irrational fear is even a problem with common pets like rats. People think they're born with rabies, or the plague, or some other horrible disease and that just being near them will make you sick. Rats and most other rodents can't even transfer rabies to humans, on the incredibly rare occasion that they have it. With that whole rat bite fever thing in the news a while ago, now people are terrified of domesticated, captive-bred pet rats even more. But what people don't realize is that they could get a very similar infection from household cats; cat scratch fever. Or even toxoplasmosis, which is WAY more common than rat bite or cat scratch fever...and you could get it just from scooping your cat's litter box and not washing your hands afterward. Better ban cats, then, right? :roll:

(Sorry for the rant...)
Pet parent of Emo the border collie mix, Conte the schnoodle and Namira the harlequin cat!
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Re: Vaccines

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri May 12, 2017 6:53 pm

Long as they get their initial shots they are probably covered for life. There are even some studies that show the vaccines last 5 even 7 years but the label still says 3 so that's what vets do. The studies were ended after 5 and 7 years so they likely last even longer.

I did Q&H every 5 and Kat didn't get them in her older years. I debated about Beaker since he was due by the 3yr standard this year but got them after the vet said that after 7 they consider them immune and he wouldn't need any more so that would make this year's shots his last since he's 5. By the 5 yr standard he wouldn't be due again till 10 so really wouldn't need any more after this. I think I did do Hyzzie's at 10 then nothing after. We don't have any AC enforcement so don't need to worry about rabies for license but if that changes then he can get it, and he's not going to bite anyone (there was some risk with Hyzzie so she always got hers till really senior).

There is also some evidence that half doses work in kittens/puppies and toy dogs ( & fennecs) but again isn't allowed via the label and they all get the same. The unofficial standard for fennecs is to get half doses of their shots.

On the plus side all rabies shots are killed or recombination and the killed are safe for foxes which is the big one for people who don't know much about animals to be calmer about them. Working the petting zoo a girl got herself bit by the goat(stuck her finger in it's mouth despite all the warnings not to). She was freaking out that she was going to AIDS from the goat. She wouldn't listen to me that, that wasn't possible so I had to get my boss to calm her down. I was just thankful she didn't think about rabies as she could have got the poor goat killed for testing since goats don't have a vaccine either.

Parvo is the big one for dogs. Beaker had and survived it as a puppy before we got him but his brother died. But the info I found shows foxes probably aren't at risk. Most people still get their foxes a shot for it anyway though since it's so devastating in dogs and the info I found isn't well known. I would always get a parvo for puppies but it's not a serious risk in adult dogs.

Distemper is second most risk for dogs, highest risk for foxes. Out breakouts are often at shelters and rural areas since it's spread like the flu and doesn't last long outside a host. Still makes me nervous not getting it but it's not safe too and the risk is small since not outside or being walked in the park or anything.

Lepto and toxo aren't as common but yeah rodents or being rural or in the woods a lot could be a risk. The vet thought lepto might have been what Hyzzie had at the end but she tested negative for it.

Adeno/hepatitis Usually not fatal in dogs but hits foxes much harder. Can survive a few days outside of a host so a bit more risk but all vaccines for it, it's normally included in all the combos, are MLV so not safe for foxes. Probably a good idea for dogs but like the others likely lasts at least 5 years. So for dogs a combo once or every 5 years till older would be the way to go.

On the exotic front our state used to be one of the few that could allow for quarantine for exotics that bite but they changed it some years back to be harsher and now even a scratch reported will get them killed and tested. Yeah way to paranoid for the current state of things. They have many decades of "anecdotal" evidence that the shots work in exotics and almost no cases of captive exotics with rabies, can think of one case off the top of my head and was a bear but since those are kept outside in large enclosures they are at a higher risk from wildlife getting in and exposing them. And even then it was found fast and everyone treated for post exposure who had contact with it so nothing came of it. I remember a case of domestic rabbits getting rabies as well so any animal kept outside has some risk due to bats but a vaccination and you shouldn't need to worry.

One the rabies subject someone's dog was at the vet dying(not from rabies) and bit the vet so they didn't let her have the body back and sent it for testing. Pretty darn sad.

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