PUT EXTRA MONEY IN YOUR POCKET
https://www.ebates.com/r/SYBIL414?eeid=29041

Chimps given human rights

In the News - Articles/Links/TV/etc.

Moderators: Ash, TamanduaGirl

User avatar
TamanduaGirl
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Chimps given human rights

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:05 pm

A New York judge hasgranted two chimpanzees held at a research lab the same
rights as human prisoners, after a two year legal battle by an animal rights
organization.
The two primates,currently living in a lab at Stony Brook University, are
the first animals in history to be covered by a writ of habeas corpus,
allowing their detention to be challenged.
A representative of the Long Island university have been ordered to appear in
court to respond to a petition by the Nonhuman Rights Project that chimps
Hercules and Leo are' unlawfully detained.' SKIP

The decision by New York Supreme Court Justice Barbara Jaffe effectively
recognises the chimpanzees as legal humans, the American Association for
the Advancement of Science reports.
The lawsuits were originally filed by the Nonhuman Rights Project in December
2013, in an attempt to free Hercules and Leo and two other chimpanzees living
on private property.

Although Judge Jaffe's ruling only requires a Stony Brook University
representative to attend a hearing regarding Hercules and Leo next month, it
can be used to set precedent for further legal action.
'This is a big step forward to getting what we are ultimately seeking: the
right to bodily liberty for chimpanzees and other cognitively complex
animals
,' Natalie Prosin, the Executive Director of the Nonhuman Rights
Project (NhRP) told the AAAS.
'We got our foot in the door. And no matter what happens, that door can
never be completely shut again.'


Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3XwaYZD35

And who decides which animals are smart enough to deserve rights? Random judges? My dog can look in the mirror and recognize herself and react to it as a reflection(not like another animal or something). That's one of their signs of being a higher thinking being. Will all animals eventually need court hearings to decide custody or if they should be kept at all? That's where we're headed here.
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7954
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ash » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:19 pm

This is just freaky, honestly. I really think this is bad--but it's NY, so what do you expect? You can't even take big cat selfies there anymore. :roll: Seriously, what is this world coming to? Animals are animals. Humans are humans. People need to stop mixing the two together--it is apples to oranges and these AR activists refuse to see it because it furthers their agenda.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
User avatar
Ana
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ana » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:58 pm

Are the basic rights to freedom from exploitation, pain, and live experimentation to be
linked to "smarts"? If so, perhaps it would be acceptable to perform these experiments
on our indigent and profoundly retarded human population - such testing would be far
more worthwhile, effective, and economical. If you feel that would be wrong, why do
you think so? (I personally feel uncomfortable with this because, as with other primates,
these impaired beings are unable to give consent).

Pulitzer prize winning writer and scientist Jared Diamond, who has perhaps done more
extensive research on this subject than anyone, has declared the human species to
be 'the third chimpanzee', based on many factors, including a very strong taxonomical
similarity. Why on earth would one primate be granted reprieve from vivisection and
wrongful imprisonment, but not others? Are you truly willing to say that our most
unique feature, the larynx, is sufficient grounds? I can't imagine anyone would be
comfortable presenting that argument.

It would seem the best course, when dealing with grave issues such as terror, agony,
isolation, depression, kidnapping, murder, mutilation and torture, we MUST err on the
side of caution. Perhaps we'll never know the extent that our fellow primates feel
these things, and it is precisely because of that inexorable ignorance, we must err
towards compassion. Anything less, for any reason, is an egregious and unjustifiable
breach of autonomy.

Would you not choose to have a court mandated regulatory system in place to protect
our fellow primates from monstrous acts of violation? Rather than see even one more case
of cruelty, abuse, neglect, torture? It seems a very small price to pay to reduce the pain of
others. The only people who should fear this are those who earn their living, or obtain some
other gratification from, the exploitation of primates.

People ARE animals, that's basic science. It's inescapable. It's beyond dispute. Gouging
out the eyes of chimps, performing head transplants, stealing organs, separating infants
from their mothers to endure months of isolation to 'see what happens'? Nobody has the
right to do that to a being who cannot grant consent. If the idea of granting primates
the right to be free of torture is unsettling, how about revoking the right of humans to
imprison and experiment on primates?

To call a passionate desire to reduce the pain of other individuals an agenda is a way
of emotionally distancing yourself from the topic, to allow yourself to accept these
obscenities. Might cannot, and does not, make right.

These ideals don't enrich my life, they have never added a dollar to my pocket,
they've added heartache and difficulty to my life. There are no profits in grass
roots abolition. There are profits in vivisection and animal exploitation.
User avatar
TamanduaGirl
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:43 pm

Labs are USDA regulated though under a different system than exhibition animals. The rules of which are meant to ensure minimal suffering and suffering only as necessary and other care standards.

Do you forgo using all medications for yourself and animals as well as medical procedures and most equipment? Because it was all tested on animals first. So unless you do then yes they do enrich your life.

This isn't even about that though. This is having a hearing to see if they are "wrongfully imprisoned" Which for a human would mean do they deserve to be imprisoned for a crime. This is saying all chimps in captivity are prisoners, not owned animals but prisoners. You could have one in a huge palace with friends and a fenced in jungle of it's own, it would still be a prisoner and need a legit reason for it's imprisonment.
User avatar
Juska
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:08 am
Location: Pennsylvania, US
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Juska » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:54 pm

The Daily Fail strikes again...
Pet parent of Emo the border collie mix, Conte the schnoodle and Namira the harlequin cat!
User avatar
Ana
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ana » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:17 pm

Do you forgo using all medications for yourself and animals as well as medical procedures and most equipment? Because it was all tested on animals first. So unless you do then yes they do enrich your life.


What I said didn't enrich my life was abolition. The advancement of rights for non human
primates does not enrich my life, nor does it enrich the life of any grass roots abolitionist
I've ever known. If someone could be said to have an agenda, that would be the people
who profit. Whether or not someone could pick apart my individual life in an attempt to
find some hypocrisy would in no way affect the morality of imprisoning and experimenting
on our primate relatives without the ability to obtain consent.
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7954
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ash » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:59 am

What if you owned a parrot and someone decided to tell you that you couldn't keep it in a cage because it had the same status in society as a human? They supposedly have the same mental capacity as toddlers. Or what if they decided raccoons were too intelligent to keep caged? See how that interferes with everything we as animal owners stand for?

As TamanduaGirl said, labs are monitored closely by the USDA to ensure minimal suffering. They aren't just out there "doing whatever they want."

Just because you don't own a chimp, doesn't mean this doesn't affect you. If they decide parrots are too intelligent to be treated like property, or even raccoons, your rights are in just as much jeopardy.

Sure, scientifically, humans are animals or whatnot. Not disputing that from a scientific view--but from a moral view, definitely not in my opinion. Humans and animals are on a different level. Animal rights activists are trying to give animals the same rights as humans, and they have just done that with a species (chimpanzees).

All the medicine we take, for a headache, for depression, for vaccines--we have most of those modern things now thanks to studies done on primates.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
User avatar
Nìmwey
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:17 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Nìmwey » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:58 pm

A lab is no place for a chimp, but human rights to a non-human is ridiculous and doesn't even make sense.

The only case where a creature should have human rights should be if it can actually speak for itself, sign a legal contract, things like that - basic things a cognitively capable human can do. (That raises the question of whether severely mentally handicapped people are still human, and while I'm not in favor of human rights for animals, I'm also not in favor of judging the value of a creature based on its genes - that something is "sacred" just because its DNA says "Homo sapiens". It's a complex issue.)
My main interest is in parrots, dogs, toothed whales and snakes.
Future animals I want to have when we have land are camels, wolfdogs/wolves, coyotes or jackals, striped hyena or aardwolf. Also poultry, rabbits water buffalo and/or yak for livestock.
User avatar
TamanduaGirl
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:44 pm

Nìmwey wrote: while I'm not in favor of human rights for animals, I'm also not in favor of judging the value of a creature based on its genes - that something is "sacred" just because its DNA says "Homo sapiens". It's a complex issue.)


So what? Someone with alzheimers is now suddenly sub human or someone with cancer in the brain or something or does this idea that they are sun human only apply to people born with mental issues and not due to being acquired later? Yeah people with mental issues are still human. It would be totally in appropriate to leave them locked in a room with a bucket of water and a pee pad while you are gone of lock them in a crate but that's fine for an animal. The fact they are human is why social services gets sent to your door if there is any suspicion there is abuse. They are generally in someone else's care if they can't care for themselves, so their rights are similar to children but still rights.

Back on track though which would be better to have sent to your door for abuse of a pet Adult social services or animal control? Even if they are smart as young humans I don't think an animal should have human rights. They simply are not the same thing. Other species have different needs from humans. Leaving your children or impaired adult in a cage with a bowl of food and water and some toys just isn't okay but that would be fine for a chimp or chimps with the appropriate needs met for a chimp, like enrichment.
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7954
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ash » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:45 pm

Well, having a severely handicapped sister (though she can still function) and other relatives who are very handicapped, I find that comparison a bit offensive, to be honest. I guess it will always be just a difference of opinion here. All life is sacred, but human life is a completely different thing entirely and, in my opinion, should be treasured about any animal's life.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
User avatar
Ana
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ana » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:42 pm

The only grounds for that notion of innate sacred value, and innate superiority, are
superstitious and emotional. To me, the line of thinking is similar to people who feel
the race they belong is "special", "unique", "superior" - people rarely develop those
notions about someone else - it's the group they specifically belong to that they feel
deserves extra consideration. If you were a chimp, or a person with autism, like my
brother, or any other underserviced/underrepresented being, you wouldn't think to
yourself 'Oh, well. I'm not the superior species, so this is acceptable." You care about
humans because you are one. You believe they are superior because you are one.
You need the ability to step outside of yourself, your loved ones, and the structures
you've created. At that point you can look at another individual, imagine their life,
their perspective on their surroundings, with their basic rudiments of understanding,
and attempt to determine whether or not it's acceptable. When humans perform this
exercise, they often see that these individuals are languishing in an abysmal system
that amounts to factory life, industrialized life, life in cells, incarcerated and unseen.
How is the benefit of that relevant to the morality of doing it? What right have we to
impose sacrifices of such magnitude on another individual, particularly one who we
don't even fully understand the faculties of?

A cage, food and toys is not acceptable to leave a chimp alone for any period of time.
If nothing else, It's isolation. The effects of isolation have not been adequately studied,
and yet we have clear, incontrovertible evidence of irreversible neurosis and depression.
That terrifies me. I'm not sure how parrots came into this, but should an animal gifted
with flight and intelligence be resigned to an entire life in a cage? That would be a
tragedy. Here is an interesting student article for an advanced Biology class about
the effects of isolation on humans. If the creature who shares nearly 98% of our
genetic structure is capable of enduring even a FRACTION of this experience, they're
being subjected to torture.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1898

America has a larger population of incarcerated people that any other country in the
world, and tens of thousands of those individuals are serving life sentences. The
ultimate punishment, the punishment most feared by prisoners, is solitary confinement.
It is a hellish experience for a social mammal. Many consider the isolation of a 'pet' rat
to be cruel, and numerous studies confirm that. The opportunity to volunteer for
vivisection should be made available to this population of adults who are able to
consent, and owe a debt to society as a whole. I think the implementation of a
completely voluntary prisoner experimentation program could resolve this situation.
Here is some more reading on isolation, if anyone is interested:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014051 ... arps-minds
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... esity.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/article ... loneliness
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/31/scien ... gewanted=2

These are not scientific articles, which are very boring to read. :lol: If you want to
read more about the science of isolation, and the effects on primates, you can try
these - be warned, they are filled with painful knowledge you will never be able to
"unsee".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC389234/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow
http://www.livescience.com/23169-social ... brain.html

Chimps are NOT human, though they do function at identical level as many humans
who receive a host of government services. They have an identical nervous system
that registers hot, cold, pleasure, pain just like we do. "Human" rights isn't ideal, a
new "Non Human Primates" legislation would be ideal, but if primates are in active,
dire jeopardy of torture, I'll sign anything to make that stop. This isn't because I
know any primates, or feel any personal love or regard for them - hell, they actually
scare me quite a bit. :lol: It's simply the idea that no aware, intelligent life has the
right to swoop in and steal the life of another, and make it their own. To do that,
and provide anything less than an absolute betterment of that individuals
circumstances and prospects, should be criminal.

Image
Buggle
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:14 am

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Buggle » Fri May 01, 2015 1:58 am

Ana wrote:The only grounds for that notion of innate sacred value, and innate superiority, are
superstitious and emotional. To me, the line of thinking is similar to people who feel
the race they belong is "special", "unique", "superior" - people rarely develop those
notions about someone else - it's the group they specifically belong to that they feel
deserves extra consideration. If you were a chimp, or a person with autism, like my
brother, or any other underserviced/underrepresented being, you wouldn't think to
yourself 'Oh, well. I'm not the superior species, so this is acceptable." You care about
humans because you are one. You believe they are superior because you are one.


First of all, the judge amended her order and crossed out the words 'Habeas Corpus'. Thank goodness.

And you are partially correct that humans favor their own species like any other animal. However, do I feel animals have the same 'awareness' as healthy adult humans? The answer is no. It is not based on some arbitrary superstition. Nor does it mean it is 'OK' to abuse beings with limited awareness. As a follower of animal welfare, not animal rights, I consider the well-being of any animal being used for human benefit. You do not have to support chimp rights in order to be against keeping them in laboratories for anything other than essential research for life-saving medicine. If, hypothetically, a human sustained sevre brain-damage that made them 'the same an animal' mentally, that doesn't mean they should get the same treatment as a non-human. Obviously, our system is not that literal. By virtue of being human (and I like to think this is because regardless of one's mental state, they are still the son or daughter of another human person), humans get human rights.
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7954
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ash » Fri May 01, 2015 2:53 pm

^^Couldn't agree with your statement more.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
User avatar
Ana
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Chimps given human rights

Postby Ana » Fri May 01, 2015 4:17 pm

Buggle wrote:First of all, the judge amended her order and crossed out the words 'Habeas Corpus'. Thank goodness.

And you are partially correct that humans favor their own species like any other animal. However, do I feel animals have the same 'awareness' as healthy adult humans? The answer is no. It is not based on some arbitrary superstition. Nor does it mean it is 'OK' to abuse beings with limited awareness. As a follower of animal welfare, not animal rights, I consider the well-being of any animal being used for human benefit. You do not have to support chimp rights in order to be against keeping them in laboratories for anything other than essential research for life-saving medicine. If, hypothetically, a human sustained sevre brain-damage that made them 'the same an animal' mentally, that doesn't mean they should get the same treatment as a non-human. Obviously, our system is not that literal. By virtue of being human (and I like to think this is because regardless of one's mental state, they are still the son or daughter of another human person), humans get human rights.



Your choice of 'healthy human adult' is arbitrary, and in no way representative of humanity, and our
vast population of small children, the physically and mentally disabled, and the elderly. Awareness is
a convenient, subjective term. Awareness, in any conventional sense, is a deeply flawed method of
gauging the right of a sentient being to be free of torture, particularly when the central nervous
system can do that for us, irrefutably, relying on the scientifically proven ability of an individual
bearing that central nervous system to feel agony. This method removes all room for speculation
and error. Ideally, all humans would innately understand they have no right to inflict self serving
agony on any primate regardless of their branch of the tree. There is no higher authority that can
grant humans such a right, there's no way to procure consent, that should be the end of it for
any ethical person.

Are you saying our rights as humans pertain to having a human parent with an interest in our fate?
I wonder where that leaves a ward of the state, like me. :icon-wink:

Interesting that you chose this for your first post. "Welcome". :lol:

Return to “NEWS”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest