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Vegetarianism and Veganism

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

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Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:46 am

I hope this isn't breaking the rule on animal rights propaganda. I do consider myself to be an animal rights supporter, but I have a very different idea of what that means than groups like PETA do. I consider the right to live to always take the top priority. This is what makes be a vegetarian, but it is also what makes me support private ownership of animals. The idea that anyone would rather see an animal dead than in a loving home sickens me.

The reason I don't use the term "animal welfare" is because that term is associated with the idea of treating animals well before they are killed for food. In my opnion, this is the ultimate violation of trust. I simply don't believe in raising animals to be killed, for any reason. This is why I don't know or care about the propaganda about farms that AR people put out. They could be day-spas for all I care, and it would still be wrong. I am not a vegan, though. I believe it is possible to produce milk and eggs in an ethical manner.

Of course, the problem with vegatarianism and pet-ownership colliding is that pets have to eat something. While humans can thrive on a meat-free diet, many other animals cannot. I try to present some sort of solution. In fact, with this solution, humans and animals can both have meat without killing other animals. It's called lab-grown meat. It's an emerging technology that, if I recall correctly, is already starting to gain commercial traction. This is a soluion that should please even vegans, but probably doesn't due to many people's bizzare stance against anything they can construe as artificial.

I'm looking forward to everyone sharing their opinion. While I have many strong opinions, I value open and honest communication, and try to always keep my discourse civil.

I should note that I am pro any responsible captivity of animals. I recognize that animals often live, longer, healthier, and frankly better lives in captivity than in the wild. I don't belive that something being "the naural order of things" justifies anything. Artifically is often better, be it food-related or animal-living related.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby Ash » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:40 pm

Interesting opinion, thanks for voicing it.

I personally believe that animals are meant to be used by humans. As long as they are treated humanely up until death, of course, and the animal is content and happy up until that point.

I understand that the meat industry can use some changes. Overcrowding issues, injured animals that don't get culled immediately, etc. But they're trying to make things more and more humane. So instead of making it illegal to raise and kill animals, I'd much prefer to see a few more guidelines for the industry to follow that would make things better on the animals. That being said, I understand the farmer's side of it too, and I do empathize with them.

I hadn't heard about them growing meat in a lab, but anything is possible these days, lol. I wonder how much it replicates actual animal meat and if it lacks any nutrients due to being grown in a lab. I don't think growing all meat in a lab is feasible--at least not in the near future. Maybe super far future--after we're dead.

It would take a considerable amount of money, and prices would skyrocket, making it difficult for people to feed themselves as well as their pets. It may be in the early stages and looking promising, but I have my doubts that it would work.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:55 pm

Note: This post was written out of order and I was interupted multiple times, so it may not flow perfectly. If anyone needs clarification on what I mean at any point, I will be glad to provide it. Also, the spellcheck on my Google Chrome hasn't been working for a while, so there may be spelling mistakes.

The statement that animals are "meant to be used by humans" only makes sense from a religious perspective, which I definitely don't have. There's no such thing as anything being intended a certain way, if there was no one to have that intention, as I believe. I reject the idea that humans are special and the only animals worthy of the right to live. I would hesitate to kill animal in any situation where I wouldn't also kill a human.

One thing to keep in mind is that animals raised for meat live very short lives. They are slaughtered when they are close enough to full grown for any more resources to be poured into them to be inefficient. The longest lifespan allowed for an animal intended for food seems to be 3 years for cattle. This appears to be the exeption rather then the rule, with most animals being killed during what we would consider mid-to-late adolesence. This is not to mention things like veal and lamb that are eaten.

Like I said in my original post, the idea of treating animals better before they are killed doesn't really do it for me. Of course, it should be done for now, but as soon as the killing isn't nesscary to produce meat, there's no escuse.

I wouldn't reccoment any sort of legal prohibition against meat farming until lab-grown meat is a viable and affordable option. I believe this may be the case within the next 20 years with how fast advances are happening currently, though.

Of course, on a large scale, it would be more like a factory than a lab. Any possible problems with nutrition seem easily solvable.

Saying that the cost of a lab-grown humburger has dropped from thousands of dollars when it was first done in 2013, to $11.36 in 2017, at least
according to this article: http://elliot-swartz.squarespace.com/sc ... nvitromeat I'm more optimisic about commercial viability in our lifetimes. I've even heard that fast-food resources are already looking into it. In my estimation, this is actually a much more efficient process than farming. All the reasources go directly into producing the meat.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:51 pm

A cruelty free existence is not possible. No matter who or what you are something dies in order for you to live. That's life, life brings death.

Unless you only have herbivores as pets you are not really vegan because animals are being raised and killed to feed your pets, which are a choice and not a necessity.

Even if you do only have herbivore pets and live a vegan lifestyle animals still die for your diet. Land is cleared for those crops. Animals are killed, many poisoned to protect those crops.

I think lab grown meat, if it becomes economically viable is a good idea for humans to eat, but I don't agree with a ban on raising your own food. Some people still choose to live a more historic existence of raising their own food, away from or mostly away from electronics and other modernity, natives communities, religious communities, some who just prefer to live that way, and some areas of the world where they really have no choice. To outlaw raising their own food effectively outlaw their communities and people and force their assimilation into the one culture.

As for pets we are a lot farther off than 20 years if ever from growing their diet in a lab. My fox eats whole roaches that I raise. A "lab grown" whole roach would still be a living animal at that point and have a much more miserable existence than mine do living in a tank with their family and room to run around. Same for the fact he eats day old chicks whole. He went through a very scrawny phase but a day old chick daily got him eating well again. Lab grown chicken meat would not be the same as a whole chick, nutritionally or physically. A whole lab grown chick would still have to be a living creature. They can't grow out whole but already dead bodies, we are a long, long way off from that.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:05 pm

The fact that it's impossible to be perfect is not an excuse to not strive to be good. That's like saying the pursuit of knowledge is pointless because we can't know everything. I don't think very many people would agree with that. Also, shoe me any real evidence that shows that plants can suffer.

Once more, we can' be perfect, but we should still strive to be better.

Humans don't need to eat meat. I do not buy into the fallacy that "natural is better." I hope 100 years from now, killing animals will no be considered "raising food." That's just my personal opinion, though.

I did attempt to adress the issue of what our pets will eat. I admit anything involving whole animals is more complicated. I know that some reptiles refuce to eat anything but living rodents, this is obviously a bit of a problem. I also don't know that bugs are an integral part of a fox's diet. It seems feasable that a mixture of different lab-grown tissues should be able to replicate a whole animal nutritionally. I also don't think we're too far from being able o genetically engineer a whole animal to grow, but without any sort of brain to speak of. An animal needs a brain to suffer. I'm not convinced this is nessacary, though.

EDIT: I should clarify something. I was using suffering as the metric, but that has the problem that an animal can be killed wuthout them suffering. I should add that suffering is important, but any animal who can suffer can also enjoy life. That's what you're taking away from them when you kill them.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 am

Plants react to negative stimuli. They will defend themselves, warn others. They will even react negatively to sounds that can mean danger to them. Trees even communicate and help each other through their root systems. You can even put a plant "to sleep" with human anesthetics.

In 2014, a team at the University of Lausanne in Switzerland showed that when a caterpillar attacks an Arabidopsis plant, it triggers a wave of electrical activity. .. Electrical communication has evolved in two distinct ways, each time employing a set of building blocks that presumably pre-dates the split between animals and plants around 1.5 billion years ago.


Electrical signalling in plants was one of the key factors in the birth of "plant neurobiology" (a term used despite the lack of neurons in plants), and today there are plant researchers investigating such traditionally non-plant areas as memory, learning and problem-solving.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109 ... nd-respond

Not exactly possible to prove pain or to prove no pain, as the article also briefly mentions. In animals we can measure the stress hormone of cortisol and assume they are upset but plants are alien in a sense so do not have the same things in place to measure. But they do react negatively to being wounded or even stimuli that means they that they might be wounded. I don't see how that's not pain. They are ware of it and react to it.

Trees communicating via roots and sending nutrients to help others: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ar ... t-species/
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:35 am

Even single cells have been shown to react to external stimuli and singnal eachother chemically. Do you mean too suggest that a single cell can be aware?

We know how awareness works in animals. We know that joy and suffering both live in the brain and are the result of neurons interacting. Where would awareness live in plants? How about single cells? I'm not rejecting this out-of-hand, but there are still many unanswered questions that need to be answered before I'm convinced.

I always hate it when processes that we know are concious in humans are assumed to be non-conscious in other animals. People act like animals, even when acting the same as humans in the same circumstances are actually input-output machines, while humans think and feel. Your suggestion seems to be that I'm making the same mistake with plants. We know how an animal could feel, we are animals after all. Until it is shown how plants could feel, the machine idea seems more likely.

Also, it's important to mention that some animals are more complex than others, and thus more capable of thought and feeling. If plants also experience, it would be the same way for plants. Plants also repersent fewer ethical dilemas. Many types of plant live a single year no matter what, so killing and eating them doesn't make much of a difference in their overall lifespan. Compare that to many animals who would live many times longer if they weren't slaughtered. Also, just like the difference between veganism and vegatarianism, there are many ways that one can get food from an plant without killing the plant. For example, pretty much any way of getting food from a tree isn't fatal to the tree. A lot of it as plant-abortion at worst.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby Katalyst » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:17 am

Religion doesn't come into it and for me is utterly irrelevant.

For millions of years, we have evolved from omnivorous origins so in that sense, yes, animals are something that humans are not wrong to be viewing as a food source.
Many people however can be safely vegetarian these days if they choose too and good for them.
I'm a firm believe that most people probably eat too much meat and that intensive farming is partly to blame in that. If it's cheap, it's more accessible.
If you only buy ethically produced meat, you're not causing undue harm. Meat is part of the food chain. Omnivores consume other animals.

Not everyone can be vegetarian and to assume that they can is short sighted at best and ignorant and dangerous at worst.

For me, it shouldn't so much come down to "if you're not vegetarian, you're cruel and callous" because that's just not accurate at all.
Vegetarianism and veganism isn't automatically harmless just because it doesn't directly rely on the death of animals. As has been pointed out, crops take up habitat.
Mass produced crops require pesticides. Fertiliser. Harvesting and sowing (upheaval of the landscape).

There's not an easy answer to it all.
I dearly wish that commercially, mass produced meat was out lawed and that people cut down on the amount of meat they consume over all because it would help.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with consuming other animals. Half of nature does it.
It's just that we a conscience and developed bonds with animals and that has complicated matters (and given us a kick up the arse and a chance to improve standards and welfare).
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:45 am

For millions of years, we have evolved from omnivorous origins so in that sense, yes, animals are something that humans are not wrong to be viewing as a food source.

I find that completely irrelevent. For millions of years we have evolved from animals who couldn't talk, write, or cure illnesses. We're now able to do those things. In the same way we are now able to survive without meat, and even make meat without killing. Yes, this really is a technology issue. Hunter-gathers could never have gotten complete nutrition from plants alone. Vegatarianism needs at least farming to have been invented. This also leads to the ability to get food from animals without killing them. Basically, in my vision of the future, rejecting vegatarianism besides lab-grown meat would be seen the same as rejecting modern medicine. For this analogy, the animals fill the place of the medicine-rejecters kids. Innocent victims in the denial of progess.
If you only buy ethically produced meat, you're not causing undue harm.

Arguable in today's time, but after the wide-introduction of lab-grown meat. Choosing the "real thing" will definitely be causing the undue death of animals in the production of a product that doesn't need animals to die to be made anymore. Also, humans can be just as healhy as vegatarians (maybe not vegans) as otherwise, thus if humans are the ones eating the meat it can be seen as causing undue harm today. Unless you contend that death is not harmful.

Code: Select all

Not everyone can be vegetarian and to assume that they can is short sighted at best and ignorant and dangerous at worst.

I'm not sure how it could be ignorant and dangerous. Can you please provide a justification for that claim? If the issue is efficiency of food production, the obvious solution seems to be lab-grown meat, which when perfected should be more efficient than meat-farming.
For me, it shouldn't so much come down to "if you're not vegetarian, you're cruel and callous" because that's just not accurate at all.

Of course not, anyone that says so about people who disagree with them is a bad debater. There are people that agree that vegatarianism is more ethical, but continue eating meat regardless merely because they "like how it tastes." These people probably need to re-think their priorities.
Vegetarianism and veganism isn't automatically harmless just because it doesn't directly rely on the death of animals. As has been pointed out, crops take up habitat.
Mass produced crops require pesticides. Fertiliser. Harvesting and sowing (upheaval of the landscape).

Once again, just because we can't be perfect is no reason not to strive to be better. There are farming methods that canhelp to mitigate these concerns. (I'm not talking about organic farming, which is very flawed, and often worse for the enviorement due to inefficiancy and banning of harmless practices that could help.)
There's not an easy answer to it all.
I dearly wish that commercially, mass produced meat was out lawed and that people cut down on the amount of meat they consume over all because it would help.

Implementing this idea at this point really is dangerous. I'm not sure we could feed the country anymore if this was followed. It would also be very expensive to feed pets, who do need to eat meat, unlike humans. I only support legislation after an alternative is implemented. Lab-grown meat is a commercially viable alternitive. All-natural hippie farming is not. It would need a lot more land and would cost a lot more money. This is bad for both humans, and he enviorement. Whatever people eat, most of it is going to be commercially produced on a large scale.
But there is nothing inherently wrong with consuming other animals. Half of nature does it.

Just because nature does it, doesn't mean it's okay for humans to do it. Multiple species of animals have been observed consuming young of their own species for various reasons. Does this thus make baby-eating okay because it is natural? Humans have an alternitave to eating other animals for food, most other animals do not.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby Katalyst » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:29 pm

I'm not going to attempt to pick apart the bulk of your points as we'll just be going around in circles with both of us having valid points.
Hhowever I do stand by comment "Not everyone can be vegetarian and to assume that they can is short sighted at best and ignorant and dangerous at worst."

I have horrific food allergies (and I'm talking anaphylactic level, life threatening allergies here, not intolerances).
If you haven't had to live with those, it's probably really hard to appreciate how difficult it is to get everything you need on an already restricted diet if you were to then restrict it even further.
Put bluntly, if I decided to be all out vegetarian, it'd end very badly.

I don't think it's an unreasonable hope to hold that one day we won't need to rely on eating dead animals but right now, it's not financially viable and is a completely unattainable option for the vast majority of the population. I've yet to see lab grown meat for sale anywhere...

So, I will stick to only eating locally and ethically produced meat in very small quantities in an effort to reduce the harm my existence causes as far as is possible to do so (right back at ya with the "just because we can't be perfect ;) )
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:33 pm

I'm not going to attempt to pick apart the bulk of your points as we'll just be going around in circles with both of us having valid points.

That's a strange argument to end a debate. I'm not willing to grant that your points would be valid without even knowing what they are. However, if you don't feel like debating any longer, that is completly up to you.
I have horrific food allergies (and I'm talking anaphylactic level, life threatening allergies here, not intolerances).
If you haven't had to live with those, it's probably really hard to appreciate how difficult it is to get everything you need on an already restricted diet if you were to then restrict it even further.

I was not aware of that, and I admit I didn't think of it. However, in my mind that would put you and others with simmilar problems in the same catagory as most pets. Unable to be vegatarians as it is, but definitly able to benefit from lab-grown meat when it becomes commercially available, which I think will happen in the next couple decades.
I don't think it's an unreasonable hope to hold that one day we won't need to rely on eating dead animals but right now, it's not financially viable and is a completely unattainable option for the vast majority of the population.

I don't see how eating "locally and ethically produced meat" is any less epensive than eating a vegatarian diet. I understand that you only eat small amounts of meat, and advocate that others do the same, but that's not an option for the hundereds of millions of animals under human care. The only solution for them is lab-grown meat. Basically, if mass-produced meat was outlawed before an alternitave was available, nobody could afford to feed their pets. Also, I don't think the "vast majority of the population" is too poor to afford to be vegatarians, or has health problems preventing them from doing so. Those issues are in the minority, in the US, at least. I know we'd have to have technology advance significatnly for people in developing countries to be vegetarians, but that's not what I'm advocating.
So, I will stick to only eating locally and ethically produced meat in very small quantities in an effort to reduce the harm my existence causes as far as is possible to do so (right back at ya with the "just because we can't be perfect ;) )So, I will stick to only eating locally and ethically produced meat in very small quantities in an effort to reduce the harm my existence causes as far as is possible to do so (right back at ya with the "just because we can't be perfect ;) )

I applaud you for doing the best you can with your health concerns. I do hope you consider switching to lab-growen meat when it becomes available. I do have one follow-up question, however. What do you feed your pets?
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby pat » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:34 pm

catlover,

I am not going to condemn you of your food choices.

to be honest, after seeing how some of these animals are kept for food makes me sick. if they were treated more humanely with the proper care of them. yes, I still buy meat. I feed my dogs chicken and rice. I fear the dog foods they have now.

I do eat meat, but not a big meat eater. I will tell you, awhile back, I did raise turkeys, cows and pigs for meat. that was the best meat I ever had.
currently, I have two steers, they will be ready for butcher in a few months. I also have a couple big turkeys that is almost ready.
I try not to be too social with them. otherwise, I would have a flock of animals I could not afford to keep feeding.

a long time ago, I bought 3 calves. at the right age, I had a butcher pick them up. one of the steers hid. could not find him anywhere :roll:
after the 2 steers were hauled off, the 3rd steer surfaced. Needless to say, he turned out to be a pet and got along great with all my other animals.
sadly, he passed away recently, he was 17 years old.

I have read meat is a good source of protein. my understanding is it has no carbs or very little.

just curious, what do you eat in place of meat?
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby catlover1019 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:22 pm

I try not to be too social with them. otherwise, I would have a flock of animals I could not afford to keep feeding.

That kinds shows that you love animals too much to be eating them. In my opinion, if someone couldn't stand to "pull the trigger" so to speak, they have no buisiness ordering a killing. If one has to have someone else do something because of their empathy, that thing probably shouldn't be happening at all. Obviously, if you don't want to have cattle and then kill them, don't raise cattle for meat.
I have read meat is a good source of protein. my understanding is it has no carbs or very little.

That's accurate, though the idea of a high-protein no-carb diet being a healthy one for humans is false. Humans thrive on carbs. The only people that need to reduce carbs are diabetics. Meat can also have not-so-good things like too much fat and iron. There are also other good protein sources. I'm a vegatarian, not a vegan, so dairy and eggs are acceptable protein sources.
just curious, what do you eat in place of meat?

I don't eat a very healthy or balanced diet, but that has nothing to do with me being a vegearian. I never ate meat growing up due to not liking it, and I developed my moral reasons later. My diet consists mainly of carbs and cheese, but other vegatarians have healthier diets. There are things like tofu and vital wheat gluten that they eat instead of meat. A lot of them also get protein from things like nuts and beans.
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Re: Vegetarianism and Veganism

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:00 am

Maybe considered a bit more supplement that food but I have some hemp protein powder in the fridge. Not only is it loaded with protein but it's got lots of iron and a bunch of other minerals too. Whey protein powder is another option, long as not looking for vegan sources.

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