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A couple of controversial topics

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

WARNING things may get a bit rougher here than the other forums.

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vulpini
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A couple of controversial topics

Postby vulpini » Tue May 06, 2014 1:51 pm

Hello!

First off, I would like to start with the topic of these "undercover cameras" in slaughter houses and fur farms. Do these cameras actually capture real, undisturbed footage of animal abuse, or is the footage usually rigged? I have found many of these undercover "investigations" deeply disturbing, and would feel comforted to know that perhaps it is just rigged to get more money, and doesn't occur daily :/


Secondly, the topic of equestrian fox hunting in the US with hounds. My barn goes on foxhunts during the winter, but we actually call them fox "chases," because we haven't caught a fox. What are your views on this? The woman I ride with has been fox chasing for 30 years and hasn't ever caught a fox. Please know that the type of "hunting" I'm talking about is not caged hunting or hunting where the animal has no escape. It is over many, many acres of open land with many trees, holes, bushes, fields, and the like for escape.

Third of all, what about SeaWorld or other marine attractions? I know that many have been on the Blackfish warpath for a while now, and they seem to present convincing evidence of animal abuse...What are your thoughts?


And lastly, what are your views on PETA? (oh yes, I went there ;) ) Do you think they started with good intentions, and then lapsed from there? I am not overly familiar with them (though I did look on their FAQs and had a few good laughs), but their core beliefs seem agreeable. However, I disagree with their "shelters," or death traps, where over 80% of their animals are killed. I have never had personal dealings with a PETA member, and would love to hear your views on it.
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue May 06, 2014 2:54 pm

It would have really been better to have a topic for each. This could get messy.

vulpini wrote:Hello!

First off, I would like to start with the topic of these "undercover cameras" in slaughter houses and fur farms. Do these cameras actually capture real, undisturbed footage of animal abuse, or is the footage usually rigged? I have found many of these undercover "investigations" deeply disturbing, and would feel comforted to know that perhaps it is just rigged to get more money, and doesn't occur daily :/


Many are set up, like the skinning raccoon dogs alive. It's said they paid those people to do that. It's certainly a dangerous way to get very damaged furs that would be worth nothing otherwise. It was also proven they set up that one video of a leopard being used in a canned hunt but I don't know where to find that info any more. They get hired to do jobs like cleaning and feeding then film animals that are not fed or clean and say it's the owners fault and people just go with it.

Secondly, the topic of equestrian fox hunting in the US with hounds. My barn goes on foxhunts during the winter, but we actually call them fox "chases," because we haven't caught a fox. What are your views on this? The woman I ride with has been fox chasing for 30 years and hasn't ever caught a fox. Please know that the type of "hunting" I'm talking about is not caged hunting or hunting where the animal has no escape. It is over many, many acres of open land with many trees, holes, bushes, fields, and the like for escape.


I'm not against hunting. The problem is when dogs are used and they corner and tear an animal to shreds. You can find video of people doing this to raccoons on YT :(

Third of all, what about SeaWorld or other marine attractions? I know that many have been on the Blackfish warpath for a while now, and they seem to present convincing evidence of animal abuse...What are your thoughts?


viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11635


And lastly, what are your views on PETA? (oh yes, I went there ;) ) Do you think they started with good intentions, and then lapsed from there? I am not overly familiar with them (though I did look on their FAQs and had a few good laughs), but their core beliefs seem agreeable. However, I disagree with their "shelters," or death traps, where over 80% of their animals are killed. I have never had personal dealings with a PETA member, and would love to hear your views on it.


It's been discussed here plenty. Their core beliefs are Animal Rights. Meaning even having a pet means it's a slave. They want no human animal contact. They have given money to animal rights terrorists.
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Alynn
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby Alynn » Tue May 06, 2014 4:06 pm

First - When we're talking undercover cameras of fur farms - no, the footage that I've seen go around of arctic foxes and raccoon dogs being skinned is staged. In China, workers are paid really poorly, so if a guy offers you a ton of money to skin an animal alive and you have a hungry family at home, you're gonna do it. There's an article on how the people who had paid to have the video staged were part of an extremist animal activist group and were prosecuted.

As far as farms go, it depends. I've seen different videos here and there - and yes, some farms are run poorly, it happens, but they are an exception rather than a rule, and most farms and slaughterhouses are kept under strict regulation or else they face violations, and being shut down. People would rather follow the rules than get shut down. The other issue is some videos are taken in different countries - a lot of the videos I saw of farm workers stomping on the heads of chickens or that were filmed in Mexico where regulations are a lot more lax as far as animal welfare is concerned.

Though if you see videos of chickens, pigs, etc having their throats slit - it may seem gruesome, but this is the fastest, humane and most accessible mean of killing an animal to butcher. Bleeding out is actually relatively painless, and other methods like a bolt gun or gassing is unreliable or poses health hazards to the people consuming the meat.

If you're worried about eating meat, I'd recommend buying from a local farmer/slaughterhouse that you know is taking good care of their animals and aren't mass farming them. It's sometimes more expensive and more difficult to find a local farmer, so I understand if people opt to be vegetarian instead. Another good option is taking up hunting or getting meat from a hunter you trust.

Second - I really don't have any idea what goes on in fox chases, can't help there.

Third - TamanduaGirl posted the topic. It's something that I still think is not a clear cut issue either way. But generally speaking you should not take an inherently slanted documentary at face value.

Last - I don't know how PETA started out, but in my opinion they are up there with the Animal Liberation Front as being eco-terrorists who value the lives of humans over animals. They don't do any actual hands on work that benefits animals, just lobbying, smear campaigns, and tricking people into thinking they're moderate before turning around and rallying for crazy ideas.
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BlueBaby1023
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby BlueBaby1023 » Wed May 07, 2014 1:50 am

The first topic has already been thoroughly answered, and I myself started the third topic on another thread which was linked to.

As for the second, as long as there isn't any undue stress on animals for an unreasonable length or pain from being torn to shreds alive like TG mentioned, I see no difference in that versus hunting, especially with less "lethal" methods like bows (well, accuracy anyways, especially for newbies) instead of with rifles.

As for the last topic, as was said, PETA does nothing good for animals. To be frank, they are responsible for more pain and suffering on an animal's part than the public can ever imagine. Unfortunately, the general public doesn't understand that they not only do not help animals, but hurt them. I feel like while PETA does NOT have it's heart in the right place, the majority of people who try to help PETA do. I grew up in a household that donated to them, HSUS, and the ASPCA for years until I got into high school and told my mother from research exactly what they did and did not do. Needless to say, she now donates to local charities that help animals instead.

Also, just a correction:

Alynn wrote:Though if you see videos of chickens, pigs, etc having their throats slit - it may seem gruesome, but this is the fastest, humane and most accessible mean of killing an animal to butcher. Bleeding out is actually relatively painless, and other methods like a bolt gun or gassing is unreliable or poses health hazards to the people consuming the meat.


That's untrue. In order to pass standards set forth by the AWA, all animals must be stunned before bleeding out. Each species is stunned differently. Cattle, sheep, goats, and horses are typically stunned via a captive bolt gun, which destroys the brain. The head, except the tongue, is condemned. Pigs are stunned in one of two ways, electrical stunning or CO2 chambers. Electrical stunning is more efficient (because it causes cardiac arrest like with captive bolt) for bleeding out, so it is more popular. Chickens, turkey, and other poultry are stunned by hanging by their feet upside-down on a shackle that is linked to a live source of electricity. Their heads are then dragged through saltwater, which stimulates a strong electric current.

All of these methods must have a minimum of 95% efficacy. In other words, they cannot return to consciousness after being stunned during bleeding. If that isn't met, the slaughter facility is immediately shut down. This rarely happens, so most places are not shut down based on that problem. There is an inspector on site every day, all day, ensuring the efficacy is in place. If an animal returns to consciousness, it is immediately restunned.

The only exception to the stunning method is for kosher or halal foods, which are slaughtered separately. None of the slaughter methods used today are harmful to the meat, except that of the head. And, as I said, they must be 95% or greater reliability, and most slaughter places maintain close to 100%.

There is more information available through the USDA here:

https://awic.nal.usda.gov/government-an ... ughter-act

Here is also more information on slaughter via Temple Grandin and my meat sciences class from last term:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsEbvwM ... YdkgF7ZN13
4 Fancy Rats
2 American Guinea Pigs
1 Holland Lop Rabbit
1 Rex Rabbit
2 Ferrets
1 Lutino Cockatiel
5 Mixed Breed Cats
1 PitxLab
1 Great Pyr
1 Greyhound
2 Great PyrxAnatolian Shepherds
2 Red Foxes
5 Goats
~100 chickens, ducks, and turkeys
Nicophorus
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby Nicophorus » Wed May 07, 2014 10:00 am

CO2 gas causes some breeds of pigs to react violently, they don't go peacefully.

And as you mentioned, none of this applies to animals killed for Muslims or Jews. I've had goats killed Halal at my place. There is panic for 30 seconds or so, then the animal loses consciousness and proceeds to die. Bullet to the head is much more humane. I would not let a noobie to throat cutting practice on my goats, they have to know what they are doing and have a razor sharp and appropriate knife.

The large Halal slaughter house around Chicago would make great PETA PR, especially on days the public comes in to kill their own animal.
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BlueBaby1023
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby BlueBaby1023 » Wed May 07, 2014 11:16 am

Nicophorus wrote:CO2 gas causes some breeds of pigs to react violently, they don't go peacefully.

And as you mentioned, none of this applies to animals killed for Muslims or Jews. I've had goats killed Halal at my place. There is panic for 30 seconds or so, then the animal loses consciousness and proceeds to die. Bullet to the head is much more humane. I would not let a noobie to throat cutting practice on my goats, they have to know what they are doing and have a razor sharp and appropriate knife.

The large Halal slaughter house around Chicago would make great PETA PR, especially on days the public comes in to kill their own animal.


That's more misconceptions. If CO2 is done improperly the pigs will react violently. But if it's done correctly, slowly descending into 90% CO2, they will not. The breeds don't matter, it has no effect on how they breathe or how their bodies react to CO2. Now, individual pigs may have a bad reaction to CO2, but that's a genetic abnormality, not necessarily related to breed either. Either way, CO2 does not damage the meat. :) It is also not common in comparison to electrical stunning for pigs because they don't bleed out as well.

But you're right, it doesn't apply to halal or kosher foods. Those are not a big part of modern industry. Bullets are also allowed under the AWA as a stunning method, but then you have to condemn any part affected by the bullet. And it's more dangerous for the surrounding people than using a bolt gun, especially if misaimed by a newbie.

None of this applies to any small scale slaughter operations either. I don't remember the exact number of large animals per year, but it's less than 20,000 birds per year.
4 Fancy Rats
2 American Guinea Pigs
1 Holland Lop Rabbit
1 Rex Rabbit
2 Ferrets
1 Lutino Cockatiel
5 Mixed Breed Cats
1 PitxLab
1 Great Pyr
1 Greyhound
2 Great PyrxAnatolian Shepherds
2 Red Foxes
5 Goats
~100 chickens, ducks, and turkeys
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Alynn
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby Alynn » Wed May 07, 2014 3:06 pm

Nothing more to add, other thank you for the correction! I don't like spreading any misinformation and I appreciate it.
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BlueBaby1023
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby BlueBaby1023 » Wed May 07, 2014 8:24 pm

Alynn wrote:Nothing more to add, other thank you for the correction! I don't like spreading any misinformation and I appreciate it.


No problem! There's a ton of misinformation out there about "evil and cruel slaughterhouses", so I figured here at least would be best to have the right info. :lol:
4 Fancy Rats
2 American Guinea Pigs
1 Holland Lop Rabbit
1 Rex Rabbit
2 Ferrets
1 Lutino Cockatiel
5 Mixed Breed Cats
1 PitxLab
1 Great Pyr
1 Greyhound
2 Great PyrxAnatolian Shepherds
2 Red Foxes
5 Goats
~100 chickens, ducks, and turkeys
vulpini
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Re: A couple of controversial topics

Postby vulpini » Fri May 09, 2014 3:42 pm

Thank you guys for your opinions! They really helped me understand some things. I have always seen those dreadful videos of slaughter houses, and this helped me understand that they are humane.

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