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Rant on a thing

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

WARNING things may get a bit rougher here than the other forums.

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TurkRoach
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Rant on a thing

Postby TurkRoach » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:17 pm

Months ago I asked an acquaintance of mine to give me an example of a hypocritical animal-place that is not big cat rescue. The said acquaintance told me that the sloth center told her some anti-private ownership statements regarding sloths. When I asked my acquaintance who she talked about, she told me to search for chasing tail which then I understood. Then I was told that she has never made a research paper, does anything to help wild animal populations (conservation), and the fact that she used to advertise her animals on a site that is manly used by future pet owners or "roadside" zoos. A conservation group (which probably has some AR views) did raise these points a month ago prior to our conversation. But I gotta admit those are valid points. http://slothconservation.com/call-actio ... ry-oregon/

It is a shame because I was awed by chasing tail's life style and the fact that she was able to get the animals of her choice which no one else can such as African penguins, guareza, and brush-tail possums. And yes I am still jealous to her, any child she raises with the animals, or any friends whom she exchanged animals with (it would be stupid for me to deny). To a certain extent,I cannot blame her for this hypocrisy comes from the fact that AR activists and conventional people are always pressuring people and businesses who choose to have a lifestyle with exotic animals to justify their lifestyle which is probably why she calls herself a conservation center. And there is the fact some of you told me about being anti-pet is a criteria for many animal exhibitors by state or USDA (I don't remember which one). One is past that extent once the said individual keeps his/her animals in a "house" or shows his/her animal induced lifestyle on social media. Doing those things while telling other that you do not condone other people having your lifestyle directly feeds the beast otherwise known as the HSUS.

And yes I have many assumptions about chasing tail after some "deep thinking". I assume that she rarely does anything when a regulation is made since she would probably be exempt from it.I also assume that she simply just inherited her property and animals from her parents (okay this assumption is a result of jealousy).
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:55 pm

Sorry but I'm on her side here. Wouldn't you stop selling a species to the general public if 90%+ of those you sell are killed by the people who get them because they didn't follow your care instructions? Tamandua and sloth are super sensitive and easy to kill so I don't blame her for only selling to zoos and people she can trust, now. I don't know anyone who will sell a tamandua to someone who's not USDA. We're not that close any more but she was still willing to sell a tamandua to me even after she took this stance since she knew I wouldn't kill them, even encouraged me after I gave up and said I thought my girls were too old, saying they would still be able to breed safely.

She's not anti-exotic pet that's why she never joined the AZA, she even did an exotic pet episode of animal planet on cuscus before she realized how hard they were to keep, but some species really aren't fit for the general public.

She is a conservation center she has grants for her work(she just doesn't talk about it) and a real job too, so what if she doesn't have time to write papers?

"1 :a careful preservation and protection of something; especially :planned management of a natural resource to prevent exploitation, destruction, or neglect

water conservation
wildlife conservation"

So even if she just breeds yes she would still be a conservation center as she is conserving those species by breeding them.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby TurkRoach » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:35 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Sorry but I'm on her side here. Wouldn't you stop selling a species to the general public if 90%+ of those you sell are killed by the people who get them because they didn't follow your care instructions? Tamandua and sloth are super sensitive and easy to kill so I don't blame her for only selling to zoos and people she can trust, now. I don't know anyone who will sell a tamandua to someone who's not USDA. We're not that close any more but she was still willing to sell a tamandua to me even after she took this stance since she knew I wouldn't kill them, even encouraged me after I gave up and said I thought my girls were too old, saying they would still be able to breed safely.

She's not anti-exotic pet that's why she never joined the AZA, she even did an exotic pet episode of animal planet on cuscus before she realized how hard they were to keep, but some species really aren't fit for the general public.

She is a conservation center she has grants for her work(she just doesn't talk about it) and a real job too, so what if she doesn't have time to write papers?

"1 :a careful preservation and protection of something; especially :planned management of a natural resource to prevent exploitation, destruction, or neglect

water conservation
wildlife conservation"

So even if she just breeds yes she would still be a conservation center as she is conserving those species by breeding them.



You don't need to be sorry.that is what friends do; defend each other.

While I am not good at making arguments I have to ask you this: I am sure in her "research" your friend knew how sloths and anteaters were sensitive. Then why did she INITIALLY sell those animals without inquiring her potential customers? She probably knows very well that the general public isn't like her(probably why she wouldn't mind showing off her exotics), so again why would she sell animals to the general public anyways?.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Buggle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:55 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Sorry but I'm on her side here. Wouldn't you stop selling a species to the general public if 90%+ of those you sell are killed by the people who get them because they didn't follow your care instructions? Tamandua and sloth are super sensitive and easy to kill so I don't blame her for only selling to zoos and people she can trust, now. I don't know anyone who will sell a tamandua to someone who's not USDA. We're not that close any more but she was still willing to sell a tamandua to me even after she took this stance since she knew I wouldn't kill them, even encouraged me after I gave up and said I thought my girls were too old, saying they would still be able to breed safely.

She's not anti-exotic pet that's why she never joined the AZA, she even did an exotic pet episode of animal planet on cuscus before she realized how hard they were to keep, but some species really aren't fit for the general public.

She is a conservation center she has grants for her work(she just doesn't talk about it) and a real job too, so what if she doesn't have time to write papers?


Why does having a USDA suddenly make someone worthy? I'm really surprised to hear this coming from you. What does the lack of USDA say about someone? Getting annual inspections for the AWA doesn't mean a person is going to follow the care instructions. Having visitors or a business doesn't make someone a good owner. Presumably prior to getting your USDA, she trusted you, why? I'm not saying she needs to sell to everyone, but this mentality that USDA or the words 'conservation center' written on your business somehow make you a more advanced caretaker than a 'member of the general public' (me) are animal rights activist weasel tactics that violate the very foundation of being pro-exotic pet.

This is why the AR convinces the general public that only the AZA is worthy and capable of caring for those 'special' non-domesticated animals. The AR are actively trying to dismantle the privileges of the USDA. To the 'average' person, USDA sounds like some fancy title, but it ain't s_t compared to AZA. Not even ZAA is. They are calling ZAA a "fringe group". Chasing Tail's words are TOXIC for our cause. Plus, I highly doubt the AZA would approve of CT's animal encounter programs and I presume that is why she won't/can't join them. Correct me if I'm wrong. AZA is rapidly being consumed by AR, as evidenced by their latest symposium. They will not accept 'special non-domesticated animals' being touched and 'harassed' by members of the general public like they are pets. AR are so smart. Once they make it so that only the AZA can touch exotics they will take them out too, species by species. Cetaceans, then elephants, than big cats, ect., ending with small species like sloths. I almost admire them and we as a community are unable to stop this nonsense because everyone wants to be special.

Again, sloths are difficult and she can sell to who she wants, but when she says "We DO NOT condone or support in any way the keeping of sloths as pets" that is pretty clear. Plus, provide some evidence that she doesn't have this mentality for all the rest of her species, because it sure isn't on her website. It used to be, but she took everything down. I can go on, and on, and on. Her statements about her 'conservation' status are also toxic, TO HER! If she sticks to that she will continue to be criticized for not being affiliated with 'legit' conservation efforts and it will eventually blow up on our social media-driven society. Even 'members of the general public' were able to figure her out on reddit.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby TurkRoach » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:44 pm

Also does a conservation center keep animals in a human-house environment? Does a conservation center keep different species together as if they are "inter-species friends"? Does a conservation center keep an animal that is considered as an invasive species in the first place? Does a conservation center's CEO show of their animals in social media? The questions go on and on...
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:10 pm

TurkRoach wrote:While I am not good at making arguments I have to ask you this: I am sure in her "research" your friend knew how sloths and anteaters were sensitive. Then why did she INITIALLY sell those animals without inquiring her potential customers? She probably knows very well that the general public isn't like her(probably why she wouldn't mind showing off her exotics), so again why would she sell animals to the general public anyways?.


When you take on a sensitive species the learning process is on going. Especially since there was little info on the species when we were starting out with them. Her way of caring for them has changed over time as well. She no longer takes her sloths out for education shows either and only lets people come see the most friendly ones because she found the stress of being held and moved around like that too be too much for them. So why did she initially handle and move them for shows? She didn't yet know it was a problem then.

Exoticamimalsforsale was initially not as popular and easy to find as it is now with more serious hobbyists on there and she did vet buyers but they would just disappoint her and wind up with dead animals. Experience causes learning and learning causes the changed policies.

She actually doesn't talk about or show the vast majority of her exotics.

There's really no official definition of "conservation center" there is of conservation and there is of center. She does fit both.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:28 pm

Buggle wrote:Why does having a USDA suddenly make someone worthy?


It doesn't but it does act as a filter so you are only having to deal with 500 inquiries instead of 5,000. And percentage wise someone who got licensed is a lot less likely to be someone who just decided they want one on a whim. Not saying it's the best policy but it is fact. I don't know of anyone that sells them to non-usda any more.

when she says "We DO NOT condone or support in any way the keeping of sloths as pets" that is pretty clear.


Maybe different wording would be better. But the average person still thinks of pets as something you can handle ect and you can't with sloths, in her experience, without compromising their health. Could someone keep a sloth as a private animal(pet) if they kept it in a temp controlled enclosure and provided perfect care and food, and avoided unnecessary handling? Sure, but it's not going to be what most think of as a "pet". So better wording would be nice but hard to do without writing a paragraph and honestly most people just don't read any more. It's a short effective way of lessening inquiries. Again not saying it's the best policy but I understand it and do not believe she has turned anti-exotic pet all together. As for proving it, I'd have to dig through her posts and messages and such and don't really have time for that. One thing I could add is she has often been willing to pick up and deliver animals for people when she takes her trips to get hers each year. Don't think she'd do that if she thought people shouldn't have them.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Ash » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:22 pm

Honestly, I think if she knew the individual was going to take good care of the sloth or tamandua, she would go ahead and sell it to them. Problem is, she doesn't know and can't know with everybody. Those species are VERY sensitive... To my knowledge she sells monkeys to private individuals. I bet if you got to know her and she got to know you specifically she would sell one. If you showed her a setup conducive to keeping a sloth, and knowledge about sloth-keeping, I bet she'd probably sell you one as well.

I honestly think it's to ward off all the people who see a sloth at her facility and think they want one because it's cute. Same with the anteaters. You wouldn't believe how many people think getting an anteater will get rid of their ant problem...

USDA is still private ownership. But it adds another hoop to screen buyers which is why a lot of facilities are putting that out there now as a requirement. And no, being USDA does not make someone better than someone without. That I agree with 100%!! But does it make it more LIKELY that they'll be more trustworthy and capable of taking the animal? Unfortunately, it does. :/

While I disagree with someone's stance not to sell to individuals without a USDA license, I can understand why someone with a sensitive species would put that requirement on. Do I agree with it? No. But do I understand why? Yes. Also being a conservation center she may only want to sell those particular species where conservation can continue (education animals/ breeders), which would require a USDA license.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Ash » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:28 pm

If you're curious about her stance on a certain topic, you should message her and ask. I agree that what she says about sloth pets is bad. Maybe ask her under what conditions an individual of the general public could have one? But messaging someone and getting to the center of it that way is probably a lot better than talking about someone. Especially someone who is looked up to so much in the exotic animal community.

So I suggest sending a message and see if she responds. She may or may not (she is busy and doesn't do chit-chat much). But it would be worth a try. :)
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Ash » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:38 pm

As for the definition of conservation center, I personally think that that can apply to anyone propagating at-risk or rare animals responsibly. I feel like you'd have to have a a good number of them, and you would work to diversify bloodlines as much as you could. I think if I started breeding aardwolves specifically and diversifying captive bloodlines I could be considered a conservation center too. Not much more else to the term, except RESPONSIBLE PROPAGATION and DIVERSITY in my opinion, and dedication/focus on a certain species. :D
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Buggle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:50 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:
Buggle wrote:
It doesn't but it does act as a filter so you are only having to deal with 500 inquiries instead of 5,000. And percentage wise someone who got licensed is a lot less likely to be someone who just decided they want one on a whim. Not saying it's the best policy but it is fact. I don't know of anyone that sells them to non-usda any more.


The problem here is that by lessening inquiries she is one, sounding like an animal rights-minded person, two, reinforcing that private owners cannot handle wildlife unless they are 'accredited', and three, filtering out plenty of qualified owners because they don't have a license. By demanding a USDA license, she's more likely to sell to people who want to bring these sensitive animals to presentations. Ironically, it sounds like a sloth belongs in a fully private home. These so-called wildlife centers will likely want to cash out on letting people encounter sloths as they are charismatic, high demand animals. I can't understand why she or anyone else would sell sloth encounters at all if they are so fragile. Since we are still in the learning stages, it's likely that even the 'friendly ones' are still being stressed out and this will impact them later in life. These zoos she speaks so highly of put them on exhibit and many animals do far better away from the public. Let me give you more of her quote:

"We DO NOT condone or support in any way the keeping of sloths as pets. Nor will we provide any information to to anyone who is not affiliated with at accredited zoo or wildlife center."

Maybe different wording would be better. But the average person still thinks of pets as something you can handle ect and you can't with sloths, in her experience, without compromising their health. Could someone keep a sloth as a private animal(pet) if they kept it in a temp controlled enclosure and provided perfect care and food, and avoided unnecessary handling? Sure, but it's not going to be what most think of as a "pet".


Yes, the wording is wrong, or more-so, horrendous. She doesn't condone it *in any way*. And what really got me going is her refusal to share information. Her logic is that sloths are dying in captivity, so she's going to research how to keep them alive and refuse to give info to exotic pet owners that you say she is not against. Even the AZA has their care sheets online! Yet she only gives exhibitors the information? This is all indefensible on every front. I can think of such more simple ways to talk about sloths to the general public. They should essentially be kept like a dart frog; you just look at them and control their environment. That is a pet people know not to handle (although her sloth encounter programs contradict this...again. Hogging information while inadvertently promoting their pet quality for money!). Educating people is so much more valuable than shutting people off and telling them lies about not condoning them as pets when you kinda sorta do but only to people privileged to become your friend. Help the exotic pet community. Educate, be an example for what you preach. No sloth encounters, yes to facts and education. She could set an example and be better than the 'professionals'.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Buggle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:03 pm

Ash wrote:Honestly, I think if she knew the individual was going to take good care of the sloth or tamandua, she would go ahead and sell it to them. Problem is, she doesn't know and can't know with everybody. Those species are VERY sensitive... To my knowledge she sells monkeys to private individuals. I bet if you got to know her and she got to know you specifically she would sell one. If you showed her a setup conducive to keeping a sloth, and knowledge about sloth-keeping, I bet she'd probably sell you one as well.


If she's OK with educated private people owning sloths...she lied to me.

"We DO NOT condone or support in any way the keeping of sloths as pets. Nor will we provide any information to to anyone who is not affiliated with at accredited zoo or wildlife center."

And my opinion is also based on her statements on an older Reddit thread which I could go on about forever. Essentially, she pushes the ignorant mentality that the 'general public' has about zoos vs. private owners. She tries very hard to sound 'professional' and 'above' a 'regular' person. You can tell by that quote alone, what is a 'wildlife center'? Something the average person probably believes is a group of specially trained scientists or something. Accredited by who? That matters. She's playing off of the ignorance she must have assumed I had, unaware that I've been following her for years and was originally very pleased. All of this is hurtful to exotic pet owners. The filtering you mention is not worth it. I tried to friend her on Facebook years ago and I never got a response. How should I get to know her so I'm not treated so pathetically? Frankly I wasn't going to bring any of this up until Bora Kalem did.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Buggle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Ash wrote:As for the definition of conservation center, I personally think that that can apply to anyone propagating at-risk or rare animals responsibly. I feel like you'd have to have a a good number of them, and you would work to diversify bloodlines as much as you could. I think if I started breeding aardwolves specifically and diversifying captive bloodlines I could be considered a conservation center too. Not much more else to the term, except RESPONSIBLE PROPAGATION and DIVERSITY in my opinion, and dedication/focus on a certain species. :D


I think most people think of what I think of when I hear 'Conservation Center': degrees in the natural sciences, affiliations with universities, academic peer-reviewed research papers, NO 'private ownership' but animals that are a part of international breeding programs that are 'on loan', ect. In other words, the unfun way to deal with exotics that the AR thinks is the only way, if even that.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 pm

I don't really understand not sharing care info any more either but might be a combo of limited time and the fact she's shared plenty before only to have people not listen so why keep doing it.

Her encounters are pretty strict though from what I had read before. The animals aren't moved and people come to them and the number of visits limited, and no one can pick them up and only can interact if the sloth chooses to come to them. Much different from the typical encounter where they are woken up and moved to be seen and touched.

For what it's worth I looked at her site and the statement there is not as harsh. Does say she doesn't approve of sloths as pets but goes on to say it's because they are sensitive. And while she says she only sells other species to facilities(AKA USDA and zoos) she doesn't condemn pets either and says it's because she deals with rarer animals and her aim is to continue their breeding, so selling to other breeders.
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Re: Rant on a thing

Postby Buggle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:30 pm

It's just a shame because like you said she used to have care sheets and I thought she was a great model exotic pet owner with expertise and care sheets for other people who want to follow in her foot steps. I had her videos from 'Carnal Contessa' all over my Hubpages and then I got notified that all my links were broken, turns out she deleted everything. It all went downhill from there. For every person that doesn't follow the care sheets someone else did, I'm sure. I can assure you that she is just simply against letting other people learn because, well, that's exactly what she said. That's undeniably arrogant, especially coming from someone with 'controversial' practices that the other elitist facilities are condemning. Is she with us or them? You can't have both. Deja vu, didn't this happen with Carole Baskin?

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