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fur farming

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

WARNING things may get a bit rougher here than the other forums.

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Alynn
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Sun May 29, 2011 8:13 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:
I agree with minimizing suffering of animals we do use. My reply was aimed more at Alynn who said once an animal is killed it no longer gets to experience life. The problem becomes when you argue not farming/killing them because of this the result really is they never get to experience life at all. They never get the chance to exist.


Me? Don't you mean Tervicz? o:
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun May 29, 2011 8:58 pm

oh yeah sorry. I looked at the posts while I was replying and your quoting him made it look like you said it as on my screen the box is almost the same color as the background.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Sun May 29, 2011 9:04 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:oh yeah sorry. I looked at the posts while I was replying and your quoting him made it look like you said it as on my screen the box is almost the same color as the background.


Haha, no problem.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TheDarkManiac » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:05 pm

Nobody needs to wear the fur of another animal. People who wear fur disgust me.
I think fur farming should be ended.

It is entirely possible to make coats with realistic fake fur. It would be the same fashion.
The only reason I think most people want fur coats is to show off their wealth with unnecessary status symbols.

Raising animals for meat is acceptable if done the right way, but there is no justification to slaughter animals just so some old hag can flash her wealth by covering her body with lots of vile death.

Killing for fur is an abomination.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:49 pm

TheDarkManiac wrote:Nobody needs to wear the fur of another animal. People who wear fur disgust me.
I think fur farming should be ended.

It is entirely possible to make coats with realistic fake fur. It would be the same fashion.
The only reason I think most people want fur coats is to show off their wealth with unnecessary status symbols.

Raising animals for meat is acceptable if done the right way, but there is no justification to slaughter animals just so some old hag can flash her wealth by covering her body with lots of vile death.

Killing for fur is an abomination.


Woah, okay.

First of all, fur farming is necessary in a sense. Without it, a lot of people would be out of jobs. An entire industry would be destroyed and it would deal quite a blow to taxidermy. Not only that, but what should be done about the mink and foxes in captivity?
Animal rights activists will release these animals, what animals do get away either get hit by cars, starve, or suffer some other death.
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/A ... 216960.php
Here is one case where the mink were released and most of them were just picked up and put back because they didn't go anywhere.
Foxes and mink have been bred in captivity for so long, hundreds of years, that now they are to the point where they are totally dependent on us to survive. For foxes, the pet industry can only support so many of them. I don't even know how mink would do as pets.
In order for fur to be eradicated, it would have to be very, very slowly phased out.

Second, you can make the argument that meat is unnecessary as well. No one needs meat to survive. We slide down a slippery slope when we say that - no one needs eggs or milk. Eradicate the use of chicken and cattle! No one needs to drive motorcycles, they cause a lot of death, get rid of those. No one needs pets, why have them when some are abused? No one needs toys or candy, why not shut down all the factories that spit out pollution ever day? I'm being a little extreme here, but that's where that line of thinking leads, extreme regulation on every day life, eradicating everything that isn't needed.

You argue that meat is okay if done in a humane manner - what makes foxes and mink so much better? If they are treated humanely, and all their parts are used and not wasted including their meat, bones and other parts, why not?

I understand being uncomfortable with fur and not supporting fur farms. I understand seeing it as gaudy and over the top. I understand not wanting to wear a dead animal's hide. But to claim those who wear fur are disgusting, and old hags, and to say fur farming is abomination is somewhat extreme.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:11 am

Thanks Alynn very good points. Things being outlawed should be based on the harm they do. From the animal's point of view they don't care why they die only how. Every part of a fur farm animal is used for something. Even their feces gets used as fertilizer.

Fur is a LOT better for the environment than any synthetic coat. It is fully sustainable. Making synthetic fiber for any synthetic clothes is very hard on the environment but is especially bad for synthetic winter coats, fake fur and otherwise. So killing some domestic animals for clothing material could actually help a lot of wild ones by helping the environment. I had a rabbit fur coat as a child. It was the warmest coat I have ever had. Next warmest would be this wool one I have but it is so heavy it's like wearing an extra person. The rabbit one was nice and light. I also happen to love hasenpfeffer.

All parts of cattle are used too but leather coats just aren't as warm.
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Re: fur farming

Postby caninesrock » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:07 am

TheDarkManiac is right about one thing, although he did state his point very rudely. Most people who wear fur coats are rich people who want to flaunt off their wealth. However, there are some exceptions,such as native peoples of the arctic who wear animal skins because it's the only thing that's warm enough to keep them from freezing in such an enviroment which has extremely cold temperatures. But in general, people who wear fur coats do make me angry because I feel as if most of them only care about bragging how rich they are and don't care about the fact that an animal had to die or that they're esentially wearing a dead carcass around their bodies,which I personally find nothing classy about at all.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Ash » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:23 pm

I don't buy fur coats from stores because it does make me sad that my purchase is like indirectly "killing a fox/mink" to have the coat--I know, it's kind of a silly thought driven by emotion. But if someone offered me a fur coat they didn't want anymore, heck yes! I do think fur is beautiful--whether on the animal or not. I feel that it is a way to continue to admire an animal's beauty after its passing. Fur is also probably the warmest stuff there is anyway. (Wish I had a fur coat right now! It's freezing in Utah!)

When my fox dies I would love to keep his pelt. Whether or not I will will be based on emotional reasons at the time though.

The other reason why I don't let it get to me is because I have no right to say it's wrong to kill fox or mink, but it's okay to wear leather shoes, leather coats, etc. What makes a cow any different? Sure I don't think they're nearly as "cute," but that shouldn't make a difference at all; they're probably smarter or just as smart as foxes. I love leather, and I wouldn't ever want to give it up. So it would be hypocritical to have a strong stance against furs.

Now my stance on snake leather has its own reasons. It bothers me since there isn't any regulation on proper euthenization of reptiles, and I can't stand the thought of a snake in pain before it dies. However, there is a private individual in my area selling a second-hand ten-foot anaconda skin, and if I had the money I would buy it. Snake skin is beautiful. So is alligator skin, but since they're shot I don't think they're in any pain whatsoever--so I'm completely fine with gator leather.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Lasergrl » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:26 pm

I dont own a fur coat because I hate the may they look. If I found a coat that the outside was fabric and the inside lined with fur I would get it. Im probably getting a trapper hat for this winter. When you are outside feeding, watering and cleaning up after animals there is nothing better then a fur lined hat. Even if its just rabbit fur, but sheared beaver is super warm.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Juska » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:29 pm

I like fur and other products derived from nature. The fact that animals are farmed and killed to make products and food for people does not keep me up at night...though I do know that some manufacturers and businesses use less-than-ethical methods of obtaining these resources. That doesn't make the entire industry evil, however, so I don't get all gung-ho about people who do like fur coats and the like. They have the money, it's theirs to spend. I just don't like the way they look.

I saw a nice deer skin at a local farmer's market yesterday. If I would have had the money I probably would have bought it and either hung it on my wall or used it some other way. Deer skins might be thinner than most hides, but the fur is still warmer than most materials.
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Re: fur farming

Postby the_unstable » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:54 am

I am against fur farming and the mass production of other animals when it is inhumane - and it usually is. People say bad fur farms are few and far between, you see what PETA wants to you to see, etc, but I think they're all still not good. I don't see how a person can argue that an animal that would normally travel miles in the wild that is stuck in a little cage for it's ENTIRE life is happy. It isn't normal, and ruscithil's post is a great example of what sort of damage it causes. The fox had to learn to dig, jump, etc which are things she would have naturally done and quickly learned in the wild when growing up, but because she was born and lived in a cage, she didn't know how. If she had been provided with more space, she more than likely would have learned those things and lived a bit more of a normal life.

I once adopted a dog that was born in a shelter and lived his whole life (about a year) there. I walked by his cage and he jumped up in the air, so amazingly high, so enthusiastically, so I stopped and eventually chose to adopt him. The poor guy. He did not know how to climb stairs. He would run into screen doors. The TV frightened him. I'm not saying shelters are bad exactly, just trying to show what constant confinement and life in a cage does to an animal, whether it be a fox or a dog or whatever.

I would not have a problem with fur farms and other animal breeding operations if the animals were given what they needed to live a more satisfying life. Enclosures, toys, quality food, etc. But that won't happen because it's about money.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:05 am

I don't know those are the same arguments used against exotic pets. They roam miles in the wild but you keep them cage in your yard or home.

As for the dog example well it doesn't mean much. Any animal will fear and take time to get used to something foreign. Most house cats never got for car rides so if you stick them in a car to go to the vet the freak out and scream the whole way but if you take them for rides regularly growing up while they are still learning they will ride quietly and even enjoy it. It doesn't mean it;s cruel to deprive a cat from riding in cars or a dog from being exposed to a TV or screen doors.

Is it truly impossible for a fox to be happy without something to dig in? Maybe ask Dave since he posted photos of his fox cages once a LONG time ago. They all had wire bottoms except for the nest box/indoor portion. They were about typical of what most fur farm cages look like. The fur standards do include a platform or more for them to jump up on as well. I'm not sure about standards in Germany though.

Edit here's one off his site
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Re: fur farming

Postby Juska » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:19 am

the_unstable wrote:I don't see how a person can argue that an animal that would normally travel miles in the wild that is stuck in a little cage for it's ENTIRE life is happy.


So are all the foxes at the Siberian Institute unhappy and deprived? I don't get it. Same thing with what TamanduaGirl said about other exotics. My rats have spent their entire lives in a wire cage, and they are usually bouncing around and playing when they're not curled up in their hammock. They seem pretty happy to me, never setting foot outside or not knowing what grass is, and normal wild rats travel quite a lot and nest in many things.

How are the animals supposed to know what they're "missing out on" when they've never experienced it? Is that cruel that they don't know they have wild cousins that have to fend for themselves and risk being shot, trapped or killed by another animal?

Also, my dog grew up in a shelter as well. She was born there and was the last of her litter, at almost a year old. However, when we brought her home, she figured out how to use stairs, the dog door and open cabinets to get at the treat box :roll:
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:30 pm

A little bit unrelated, but while I was walking through the hallways at my college, I noticed something on the ground next to this girl that looked awfully familiar. I peered a bit closer... and I realized she had an arctic fox tail on her key chain! I only recognized it because I had been playing with Miehiera's fluffy tail before I left for class today.

It was quite a case of deja vu. :lol:
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Re: fur farming

Postby the_unstable » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:36 pm

Yeah, I suppose it is an argument against exotic pets, but I think GOOD pet owners are at least a step up from fur farmers because the animals are cared for individually, given more space, more stimulation, better food, etc.

Dave is USDA licensed, while I'm pretty sure fur farmers are not. The USDA has more strict requirements to meet than...what, the DNR? You can find videos and pictures of fur farms that aren't absolutely horrid like AR wants you to see, and they're still not as good as Dave's. Someone on DA, just some nobody individual, snuck into a fox farm and took pictures. The cages weren't dirty, but they were small and had no enrichment. In the cages Dave has, you can't see the top of the cage. Fur farm cages are at least typically not that tall. And also, Dave has better standards than fur farms being USDA licensed and all. His cages are clean, foxes look healthy, etc, so he can comfortably post those pictures on the internet for the world to see. Have you ever seen or heard of a fur farmer doing this? There's a reason.

Juska - I don't really get why mention the Siberian Institute thing. You don't hear me saying how awesome they are and how they're different from a fur farm because essentially, I don't think that it is. The setup is the same as a fur farm's set up, the purpose for breeding is the thing that is different. I do believe that they are deprived, yes. If I remember correctly (which I may not), they didn't have nest boxes, as most fur farms probably don't either. I don't recall seeing toys of any kind in the cage.

Proportionally, the cage given to your rats is much larger than the cage given to a fox in a fur farm. If you're providing hammocks, that is enrichment. I'm willing to bet you researched and chose to give them the best diet possible, even if it is costly. I know I did. That would be normal for them to not go outside because they are domestic, aren't they? Foxes are not. If I were a fox, I'm pretty sure I'd take the risk of getting shot, trapped, or killed by another animal instead of being stuck in a cage for my entire life. Do you think that if you voluntarily let a fur farm fox out, they went in the wild and were trapped but somehow escaped, do you think they would go back to the fur farm cage for security? They don't know what is out in the wild, but I'm sure they would like it better. However, they can never have that because they were born in captivity.

So since the dog lived in a cage and had to learn all of these things that would otherwise be normal for a domestic dog, is it just simply okay to do that to, for an example, a human? It's okay as long as they pick up on the things they're supposed to know once they're out of that cage. Yes, humans are smarter than dogs, but I wouldn't say necessarily better. Humans may do a lot of good things, but they certainly do a lot of bad.

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