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fur farming

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

WARNING things may get a bit rougher here than the other forums.

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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:06 pm

TheDarkManiac wrote:I doubt anyone could make me feel differently about fur farms. Fur wearers are being selfish and showing their inability to empathize with the animals who are killed so that they can have that flashy fur coat.


Again, I wouldn't have a problem with your opinion if you didn't blatantly insult anyone who wears fur.

I personally don't wear fur, but the fact that you've so far called people who do old hags, selfish, disgusting and no respect or regard for animals is offensive to me.

You have your opinions and others have theirs, and because someone does not share your opinion does not make them wrong. I think everyone here is just as right in their beliefs as anyone else.

Again, I totally understand the viewpoint of those against fur farming and I think it's a totally valid viewpoint to have. But my viewpoint is valid as well and I don't appreciate it being insulted.
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Re: fur farming

Postby the_unstable » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:03 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Uh the food Dave recommends and sends with his foxes is fur farm food. It gives them small dry poop it's MUCH easier to clean up than diarrhea which would stick to the wire.

Some have foxes here in smaller and they are doing okay. There is a difference between adequate, good, and ideal. There is a difference between farm animal, pet and pampered pet. Adequate is not neglect or abuse but it wont make for a great pet in most cases. Do farm pigs need toys? No. Do pet pigs need toys? Yes. Doesn't mean every farm pig is neglected. There are different standards based on what you want from the animal. If every farm animal needs to be raised by pet standards food would be insanely expensive.

USDA only requires they have enough room to stand up, turn around and make normal postures. They consider that adequate. Most fur farms already give more than that.

Also more space does not always mean happier. They are normally housed side by side so even if they don't have toys they do have "enrichment" by having others to interact with. I've seen some house in groups larger than 2 so not just together for breeding but that's rare since they could harm each other(and so the fur).

Okay then what about fish in a tank? Most fish swim over huge area in the wild compared to any tank. Some people train their fish and even interact with them so you can't just write it off as they are not as advanced as foxes.

Most foxes just don't use nest boxes unless they have kits. Gizmo and Barret(and other foxes here) mostly choose to sleep on top instead of inside. They obviously must supply nest boxes though or all kits would die. They may house some just being grown after weaning for fur without nest boxes sometimes but I've actually seen quite a few photos and they normally have a nest box or part of the cage covered. Plus the growing period is during the nicer months.

As to the one fox it was not tried in a large cage with wire floor to see if it ran around normally on familiar ground. My Stewie anteater was raised inside so was scared when I'd try to take him out though he eventually learned to enjoy walks, and his life was surely richer with them, he was perfectly happy not going outside. I don't think choosing to stick with what you are familiar with, especially in a new place, is an unhealthy reaction. I think that's actually considered quite normal.

Could fur farms be better of course. Are the animals being abused and neglected routinely I don't think so. Even if you do believe that does that mean the whole industry should be shut down?


I didn't say that all fur farms give food that intentionally cause diarrhea, but apparently there is or was at least that one that a member here got a fox from. I also have acknowledged that it is not practical (nor would it ever happen) for fur farms to provide the animals with the same amount of space and enrichment that pet owners are recommended to. My argument is that it would be better for these animals if they were given more and I do not believe that they are not stressed in a fur farm habitat. I would think adequate would be enough to live comfortably without stress, and I do not believe that fur farm animals are not stressed. These supposed tests - who created them and conducted them? Fur farmers probably.

So because USDA has poor minimum requirements and many fur farms supposedly exceed them, these are automatically seen as correct, adequate, etc? I would think that just because the USDA says something does not mean it is necessarily good or logical. I'm sure they've got a lot of illogical regulations.

"More space does not always mean happier." It may not always mean happier, but it would certainly be a step up and I don't see how it wouldn't be. They may be able to interact through the cage bars/wires but that's not the same sort of enjoyment as being able to have physical contact, play, sleeping together, etc.

I don't know a thing about fish, but I should hope that typically fish are given proportionally more space than foxes and other animals at fur farms.

You mention that the fox chose to stay with what was familiar by sitting on the wire flooring. That would make sense, but being a fox, I believe it was deprived of what nature intended it to have - it was intended to walk on normal ground. You did not mention that it had to learn how to jump and climb - things a fox should naturally know how to do.

I don't believe I ever mentioned fur farm animals being abused. I suppose there are probably some fur farmers out there that may abuse their animals, but my guess is that most don't - they probably do not have physical contact with them much considering the animals are probably not tame. I don't necessarily believe that they are neglected, but, like you say, I think they could be better, I think they could live happier lives. I think of neglect as being not given food, not cleaned up after, not getting treatment for illnesses, etc. "Even if you do believe that, does that mean the whole industry should be shut down?" I don't think my beliefs would have any effect on the industry for I am just one person. If you're asking if I think the whole industry should be shut down, my answer is no. I don't particularly like fur farming, but it has done some good for humans and myself individually (I bought my own pets from one). I don't know what the actual conditions of a typical fur farm are like. I don't actually know how these animals live and how they feel about their life so I can't really be sure about whether or not I believe they need to be shut down entirely - I don't know enough about them. However, logically, I think that they would be quite stressed and I think it is sad that they have to be born into such a world and never really experience much of life.

I can absolutely respect everyone else's opinion. I agree to disagree.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:17 am

Cool. Then I don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't really be against them having some more regulation. All the rest of us seem to have to so don't see why they should be exempt. It would need to be with farm animals in mind though. But there are some on here who have had the same reasons(cage size) but say they should all be shut down even if some are good. That I will debate until it becomes obviously pointless.

Did you see the thread about Tiny Tacks under breeders? Did you look at Dave's cages by going to the link discussed(first two pages of discussion there last has a dead photo photo so don't go there)? You will see the cages are no larger than most fur farm cages. I've seen smaller but they all seem to be old photos. The ones I have seen are a lot older(cages not the photos) so not so pretty but the same size about. You should also notice quite easily his have no toys either but I don't know if any of his are house alone or only in pairs. Logically I'd think he has some alone at least for some periods of time.

Photo angles and cropping can do a lot for a photo like not seeing how the top is not high on Dave's cages in the earlier photo or cropping a cage shot down to just the animal(a lot of those "under cover" fur farm shots) so that the mind fills in the blanks and thinks it's small. Oh not to mention the large number of times I've seen obvious mink fur farm cages labeled as fox, without a close up people don't know those small cages really don't house fox.

My point being if you are okay with Dave then you should be okay with most fur farms. If you are not okay with most fur farms based on cage size and enrichment than you should not be okay with Dave. That sounds harsher than I mean it too. I'm not trying to turn anyone against Dave.

There's been a lot of study on stress levels in animals just some of it was used to test fur farm animals. It could take me some time to find more on that to post, I've got a lot going on, but it wasn't just fur farmers paying for a study to make their point, not all of it anyway they may have paid for a study at some point.

I only brought up USDA because you wrote: "Dave is USDA licensed, while I'm pretty sure fur farmers are not. The USDA has more strict requirements to meet than...what, the DNR?"

My point being even if fur farms were licensed it would not change anything in how the animals are kept for most farms. Usually if there are state laws they wind up stricter than USDA. The AWA was designed to be sure the bare minimum was required to give an animal and not have it suffer. They do have stricter rules for some things like primates(they need at least one of their own kind).

Oh also there were some studies on stress showing stress effects the development of the embryo. That a stressed out mom will have babies that tend to be more easily stressed. Not that the mom was easily prone to stress so not genetic but that stressing the mom caused kids that were more easily stressed. This should mean the offspring even if bottled should be more easily stressed(less tame) than kids from pet breeders but this hasn't been the case in animals I've heard of.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:38 am

Adding onto TamanduaGirl, the smallest cage size Dave has listed on his site is 4 x 6 x 3 feet, but he also breeds raccoon, skunk and coatimundi which I'm pretty sure he uses those cages for.
His large cages are 8 x 4 and about 6 feet tall.

The state standard for most foxes being housed in captivity is 8 x 4 or 8 x 6.
I personally tell potential fox owners 8 x 6 is the minimum size I would say as that is the state standard in Michigan and other states, Illinois is another one. That's also what I got told by many breeders when I asked them.

I'd imagine the state standard is the same for fur farms. And 8 x 6 while it is a bit small, is good enough.

Here are some pictures of an actual fur farm:
http://www.negotiationisover.net/wp-con ... farm-4.jpg
http://www.negotiationisover.net/wp-con ... -Iowa1.jpg
http://www.voiceofthevoiceless.org/wp-c ... /10/65.jpg
http://nycanimalrights.com/isolated%20white%20fox.jpg


Like TamanduaGirl said, some pictures Dave has posted, the cages look really small, but the angle of the shot can make them look a lot smaller.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:13 am

Yep those are good examples of size, they all have a nest box built onto them and in at least two I see shelves up high, just in one it's old so broken through. That first farm could be up kept better. But I knida see that too. A person isn't likely to change something till it gets broke and having multiple cages they might wait till a few need changing to do it all at once but they maybe let it go too long. Really most of it looks cosmetic besides the shelf and some old hay that should have been cleaned out sooner. Not great but not horrible yet.

The last one looks really good and is a great example.
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Re: fur farming

Postby the_unstable » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:47 am

I saw each page of the thread linked, including the dead fox, which does not disturb me. I haven't seen the inside of a fur farm, just videos and pictures on the net. I thought it was said that Dave is federally USDA licensed and the cage sizes required are larger than that of just state-level fur farms? Also, I still do not agree with that being enough space for a fox to stay in 24/7, but like I said, I agree to disagree. The videos and pictures I have seen of fur farms, even when the whole cage is shown, they're still quite a bit smaller looking than Dave's cages. About the mink cages being labeled as fox - I would think a person would have to be kind of slow to believe that a cage that small could even fit a fox, literally crammed into it.

As for being "okay with Dave", well...you read the thread that I started sometime ago about them - the one that got locked. I just pretty much see his business as being a higher quality fur farm that decided to sell animals as pets also to make more money. That is my opinion.

About USDA licensing - I was under the impression that it was quite strict, reading some of the old threads on this forum, one mentioning something about the inspector taking issue with wild mouse feces in a barn or something like that. I haven't read it in a while. To get a USDA license in my state, it seems much more difficult with stricter regulations than to just go on the DNR site and fill out a game breeder's permit application. I talked to my county conservation officer about it and I recall him saying that he had "seen some bad fur farms". I didn't ask him for more detail and he didn't voluntarily elaborate.

Alynn - The fox in the third picture looks horrible, so ragged, mangy, and unhealthy. It's tail is not fluffy and thick like fox's tail should be. It looks like the other pictures are of the same farm, probably on the same day as the grass and such looks the same, so at least the same season. Another fox in a different picture looks to have a bushier tail, which would make me think that there is just simply something wrong with the fox in the first picture I mentioned. Interestingly enough, I apparently live fairly close to that fur farm. I wonder if they'd give me a tour hahaha. Apparently that same farm was raided just on October 7th, a bunch of mink were released but no foxes.

Anyway, my final point is that I do respect your guys' opinions. I do see that fur is a better alternative to synthetic fur because it is better for the environment, though I don't agree that animals should have to live these lives stuck in cages. I also acknowledge that fur farms probably treat their animals better than some farms with cows, chickens, etc (at least from what I have heard about the cow and chicken farms which may not be true). However, I don't agree with fur farms because I feel like the animals deserve a better life than what they are given.


Edit: I found more pictures of that same farm. YUCK! http://www.animalliberationfrontline.co ... /10/71.jpg
http://www.animalliberationfrontline.co ... /10/72.jpg
It looks like this fox pen is broken http://www.animalliberationfrontline.co ... /10/61.jpg
A lot of the cages look awkward and lopsided and dumpy. The mink cages look a lot worse than the fox, but a lot of the fox cages have weird giant lumps of something gross looking in them, some of them in random spots on the side/top area of the cage.
The fox pens are bigger than I had expected them to be, however the mink cages still match up to all the other photos I've seen of other farms online - incredibly small, and of course no water to swim in. The pile of what looks like feces on the mink cages speaks for itself.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:07 am

What you consider to be big enough and what the state considers to be big enough are two different things. Unfortunately state law trumps your thoughts on the matter.
Where did anyone mention that? All I know is that the state size to keep a fox in that most states require is 8 x 6 and that's about the size of Dave's cage as well as what it seems to be the required size for fur farms. He is USDA licensed as well as state certified.
The point of the pictures was not quality, it was an example of size, the (likely) general required size for fox farms.

Even if Dave is a high quality fur farm that sells his foxes to the public as pets, he has healthy animals, a reputable experienced breeder, his pet foxes are quality. Just because he's not a hobby breeder and he breeds for money does make his operations any worse. Lasergrl better explains this on the other thread recently started about them in breeders/dealer.
I actually am not sure if I have read that thread.

As for the tail of the fox, I've seen something similar:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li0g9qWzYs1qbcsqr.jpg
(not a farmed fox, pet fox)
It seems to be only the tail that is thin to me. When foxes shed their winter coat, they can shed so heavily that they develop bald spots. I remember Ash once posting when she worked at a wildlife rescue that a fox was shedding and had patches that were practically bald.
I am not a vet though, so I can't say for sure from a low quality picture.

I completely understand and respect your opinion. We simply have to agree to disagree.
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Re: fur farming

Postby the_unstable » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:28 am

"Also, I still do not agree with that being enough space for a fox to stay in 24/7, but like I said, I agree to disagree." I said it was my opinion now didn't I? I don't see why you feel the need to tell me that state law trumps my opinion. It seems to me like your attempting to demean my opinion by saying "What you consider to be big enough and what the state considers to be big enough are two different things. Unfortunately state law trumps your thoughts on the matter." Perhaps I am misinterpreting and I apologize if I have made you feel that way in this discussion.

Ash said on page 9 "Farmers do need to be licensed by the department of agriculture (usually just at the state level), and they do have to meet certain guide lines. There are requirements that the state provides. However, theirs are not as strict as someone who is licensed federally by the USDA." No, it does not specifically refer to cage size. She says again on page 9 "You're right, state standards in most states are not as strict as federal standards. In order to sell foxes (actually, any animal for that matter) you need a USDA license, so Dave is USDA licensed." Otherwise, it was not stated, and I am capable of admitting that I was wrong.

You say that most states require 8x6 - have you looked up these laws for each state?

I did not say that Dave does not sell healthy animals, nor did I say he is not reputable, not experienced, and that his foxes are not quality. I did not say that breeding for money makes an operation worse than one that does not. In photos, his foxes look healthy, the cages look well-maintained, and everything looks clean. However, I see him as being a fur farm as well because of the large scale and the use of his foxes for fur.

I, too, can respect your opinion. I agree to disagree.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:45 am

Dave has said he started as a fur farmer I doubt he changed much about how he raises them other than bottle feeding the ones to sell. Yes he is USDA licensed to sell foxes as pets. I don't always keep track of who likes who so if you think his cages are unacceptable in size too then at least your consistent. USDA only requires the cage size be big enough to stand up turn around and make normal postures. For a red fox that might be like 3x3? I have USDA I have the rule book I know what they require.

Yes there are some other things USDA regulates and not having mice dropping in the animals food and such is part of it but most of the debate has focused on cage size so far.

What one thinks is big enough to be the minimum allowed and what another thinks is small enough to need banned under regulations I'm sure varies quite a bit. I'm sure that's why USDA leaves it so lose and minimal or it would need to be a huge law and cover all species and what size is okay. Since state fur bearer laws cover fewer species they can take the time to make real size requirements based on species so they do tend to be stricter where they exist.

Yeah that first farm is run down and those mink cages are icky. The last photo is the same cages as the first posted by Unstable. Not sure why the first cage had a board down in one and not the other either taken at different times or it suddenly broke while they were taking photos. either way they are over due for repair. Size wise though it looks about the same as Daves to me only they have platforms up high in them. The pile on the cages is the food as they are putting raw meat on there for them to reach up and grab and pull through but it looks to have been there too long but not rotten just dried but still not good. Technically if cleaned up before it spoils it's more enrichment than just putting it in a bowl.

for some reason the third photo doesn't work for me but could be shedding from what's said. Not all animals shed at the same time or in the same way. Ori looks kind of moth eaten but I swear there's nothing wrong with her other than being tubby. The others haven't ever shed like her(Mandua did while visiting though).
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:31 am

the_unstable wrote:"Also, I still do not agree with that being enough space for a fox to stay in 24/7, but like I said, I agree to disagree." I said it was my opinion now didn't I? I don't see why you feel the need to tell me that state law trumps my opinion. It seems to me like your attempting to demean my opinion by saying "What you consider to be big enough and what the state considers to be big enough are two different things. Unfortunately state law trumps your thoughts on the matter." Perhaps I am misinterpreting and I apologize if I have made you feel that way in this discussion.

Ash said on page 9 "Farmers do need to be licensed by the department of agriculture (usually just at the state level), and they do have to meet certain guide lines. There are requirements that the state provides. However, theirs are not as strict as someone who is licensed federally by the USDA." No, it does not specifically refer to cage size. She says again on page 9 "You're right, state standards in most states are not as strict as federal standards. In order to sell foxes (actually, any animal for that matter) you need a USDA license, so Dave is USDA licensed." Otherwise, it was not stated, and I am capable of admitting that I was wrong.

You say that most states require 8x6 - have you looked up these laws for each state?

I did not say that Dave does not sell healthy animals, nor did I say he is not reputable, not experienced, and that his foxes are not quality. I did not say that breeding for money makes an operation worse than one that does not. In photos, his foxes look healthy, the cages look well-maintained, and everything looks clean. However, I see him as being a fur farm as well because of the large scale and the use of his foxes for fur.

I, too, can respect your opinion. I agree to disagree.


I did not mean to demean your opinion. I made a point that I now realize did not mean to be made. I did not mean to demean your opinion, so I apologize as that was not my intent. I was wrong to mention it.

Have I looked up all the individual laws? No, but that is from what I know state size for Michigan, Illinois and Indiana, and I have a few times asked other people what their minimum size requirement was and got 8 x 6. From that I simply assumed that most states seem to have agreed on that size. Perhaps it is an incorrect assumption, but I think it was rather reasonably drawn from what I've heard from others on this board.

I just wanted to clarify that thought about Dave though, because generally the term fur farm is used in a negative connotation, like "yeah, the animals are healthy but it's still a fur farm". From what you have been posting you believe that most fur farms are not maintained well and are stressful to the animals, and therefore when you say he runs a fur farm while arguing against them I assumed something along the lines of:
stressful, not treated well animals = fur farms
Dave's operation = fur farm
Dave's operation = animals not treated very well.
So I just wanted to make sure that was cleared up and why we are using him as a standard.

I should really stop posting though it's late and I got a headache and I've been doing my homework on and off for the past few hours, so my brain is all over. Lol. I'll try to go to bed, but good night to you guys. =)

Again unstable, sorry if I made you feel demeaned. I didn't want to do that. Please do understand that I respect your opinions even if I do not agree.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:49 am

a lot of the studies are on mink but here's results from one of blue fox.

Cortisol is known as 'the stress hormone' because stress activates cortisol secretion. this was found to be higher in foxes in larger cages. Foxes in larger cages were also more stressed by being captured(more stressed by people, people come every day to feed and clean, so are more stressed daily).

w50 = 50 cm(1.6) x105(3.4F) x70(2.3) high - wire floor
w120 = 120 cm(4ft) x 105x70 high -wire floor
w500 out-of-shed pen (5 m(16F) long x 3 m(9.8F) wide x 1·8 m(6F) high -wire floor
E500 = 5 m long x 3 m wide x 1·8 m high - Dirt floor

During stress, the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is activated leading to the release of ACTH from the anterior pituitary. Finally, ACTH stimulates the adrenocortical release of
glucocorticoids from the adrenal cortex (Svendsen and Carter, 1984). Blood cortisol has been used as an indicator of HPA axis activity. Cortisol levels for blue foxes in shed cages (W120) after capture have previously been found to average 53 nmol/l (Rekiläet al., 1999). In the present study, cortisol values were similar for W50 and W120 foxes, but significantly higher for foxes housed in pens (W500, E500). This result was after the effects of sampling order and sampling duration were taken into account in statistical analyses. Thus, differences in cortisol levels were due to housing conditions.

The adrenocortical reactivity to ACTH stimulation has been found to be sensitive to intensive housing conditions in pigs (Von Borell and Ladewig, 1989). ACTH stimulation has also been succesfully used for measuring stress in farmed foxes (Rekilä et al., 1999). The theoretical basis of the ACTH challenge test is the assumption that long-term stress results in overactivity of the adrenal cortex, which leads to increased or prolonged cortisol production (Broom and Johnson, 1993). According to Rekilä et al. (1999), cortisol levels after ACTH stimulation averaged 380 nmol/l in blue foxes. This is very close to the values found in the present study. While no differences across housing conditions were found, it is obvious that the foxes in our experiment did not suffer any pronounced long-term stress. This finding is also supported by their adrenal weights which did
not reveal any significant differences between groups. Typically, long-term stress has been considered to cause an increase in adrenal weight (Selye, 1950; Mason, 1992; Mononen et al., 1999).

The behavioural tests used did not detect any large and systematic differences between the groups that could be associated with a better or poorer welfare.

Animal welfare can be measured using objective criteria that are free of ethical considerations (Broomand Johnson, 1993; Fraser and Broom, 1997). However, even then the welfare can be understood as a continuum from very poor to very good along different criteria (Broom and Johnson, 1993). Obviously there is also a cut-off value at which the welfare becomes increasingly poorer if
environmental conditions become worse but at the other end of the spectrum the welfare does not
necessarily become better after a certain cut-off point even though a certain environmental feature, e.g. space, becomes more favourable (Meunier-Salaun et al., 1987). The present results actually fit this scheme.

Provision of the blue foxes with 4·2 times more space with or without soil floor than they had in their
standard environment, did not result in marked and systematic improvement in the welfare indices used. Furthermore, to our surprise a cage size that was only half of their standard cage did not impair the welfare of the foxes either. This is a very typical result among animal welfare research (Dawkins, 1997).

Scientists working on the subject generally accept the concept that animal welfare can be measured using objective criteria. However single indicator is never enough to demonstrate good or
poor welfare and a cocktail of several indicators has be used and scientists often find it difficult to detect a measureable impairment of animal welfare as we did in the present study.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Juska » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:19 am

If you all agree to disagree, STOP arguing :roll: This topic isn't about Dave or domestic foxes, it's about fur farming. Let's get back on track, shall we?
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Re: fur farming

Postby Alynn » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Juska wrote:If you all agree to disagree, STOP arguing :roll: This topic isn't about Dave or domestic foxes, it's about fur farming. Let's get back on track, shall we?


I saw passionate debating but I do not see arguing. Arguing is where it gets to the point of personal attacks and insults and a refusal to see the other side of the story.

I'm personally done debating because I've said all I can really say and others for the most part have agreed to disagree.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:25 pm

Yeah Dave was just being used as a cage size example.
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Re: fur farming

Postby the_unstable » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:25 pm

Juska wrote:If you all agree to disagree, STOP arguing :roll: This topic isn't about Dave or domestic foxes, it's about fur farming. Let's get back on track, shall we?


I am agreeing with Alynn in saying that this is debating rather than arguing - and this is the debate section. We are still discussing fur farming, not domestic foxes, so I do not see how it is off topic. Let's leave moderating to the moderators and admins.

TG - The fur farm pictures posted do look to be the same size as Dave's cages. I had assumed that fur farm cages were smaller because I thought that Dave would have more strict regulations to abide by and, of course, the videos and photos I've seen of fur farm cages online are typically a lot smaller, and this is obvious in the photos that show the whole cage at a normal angle.

I saw a video after seeing those pictures of the food being prepared and the mink being fed and I realized the icky lump and nasty stuff was food and not feces, so that was an improvement in my mind. I had trouble getting some of the photos to work also. They eventually did with refreshing the page.

Alynn - I agree, it seems like a reasonable assumption to think that most states require 8x6 cages for foxes. I would have to say that the photos posted of the fur farm that is close to me does not seem to be well maintained. Dave's operation looks nicer than that. I did not mean to imply that he does not take good care of his animals necessarily.

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