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fur farming

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

WARNING things may get a bit rougher here than the other forums.

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caninesrock
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Re: fur farming

Postby caninesrock » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:41 pm

Edit: Sorry about the awkward spacing. I typed this in notepad and then pasted it. Notepad does wierd things to text. icon_confused.gif

@Alynn:What I really meant was that humans are the

only animals that seem to go along destroying the

environment and killing all other species. And the

only ones who have some kind of illusion that

they're "gods" and can decide who and/or what lives

or dies and what animals deserve to be protected and

treated well and what ones deserved to be treated

like livestock(a.k.a. like walking dollar bills

instead of intelligent living lifeforms with

feelings who have just as much a right to be alive

as we do unless we have a legimate reason for

killing them). I'm sure everyone would be outraged

if dogs were being kept in tiny cages and killed for

their fur, but because they're just foxes or minks

it's fine. So, I suppose this means that dogs have

more value than foxes or minks just because society

as a whole likes dogs better? Who are we to decide

which species has more value than another? All

species should be treated equally. You wouldn't

want someone to skin a dog and wear it as a coat, so

why minks and foxes?

[quote]Does the purpose really matter if every part

is used and the animal is respected?[qoute]

I disagree. Wearing the animal's skin is not

respecting it. You wouldn't wear another human

beings skin. That would be considered insulting to

the memory of the person and also more than slightly

disturbing to people. Yes, I know animals aren't

equal to humans,but that doesn't mean that we

should kill them for unneccessary purposes. If

someone can tell me how fur coats are necessary,then

maybe I'll change my mind,but until then I still

think wearing fur coats is disrespectful to the

animal and completely and totally unneccessary. Even

if you say that wearing it is admiring the fur, it's

shows far more respect to admire the fur ON the

animal.

I'm confused on the part where you said every part

is used for sport hunting. I see an awful lot of

sports hunters who stick the taxidermed animals or

their heads on their walls as trophies to brag about

how manly they are. I don't remember where I read

it,but I remember a qoute someone said about sport

hunting that I agree with: "Real men don't kill

animals." And as for sport hunting, I don't see how

killing to satisfy some blood-lust desire is

respecting the animal even if all the parts are

used.

@Ash:Weasels likely don't kill for pleasure. Many

animals have caches. They maybe carrying some food

and then come back for the rest. The weasels are

probably killing so they have food that they can

come back to if they need more later. Alot of

predators do this.

With coyotes and foxes, it's a territory thing.

Territory is a matter of life or death for wild

animals. They have to compete for food sources among

other things. Because coyotes and foxes eat simliar

food, they are in direct competition with each

other. A coyote will kill a fox and any of it's

other competitors not just because it sees one but

because it doesn't want to starve because it's food

would get eaten by the fox. As for cats, I'm

guessing it's probably remnants of their hunting

instincts back when they were wild and needed to

kill for food. But wouldn't it be more respectful to

admire the fur ON the animal? It's not showing very

much respect for the animal to want it to be killed

and robbed of its life(especially since foxes

atleast are killed before they even reach a year

old) just so someone can "steal" it's pretty skin

for themselves to wear.

@TG: Exotic pet ownership and fur farming arguments

are not the same. When people complain about

animals not having enough space and being confined

as exotic pets it's usually unfounded as responsible

exotic owners usually have their pets in large

enclosures or allow them to roam freely around their

house. Even if the animals are kept in cages, it's

usually not 24/7. The animals are let out and

allowed exercise. In fur-farming, the animals are in

cages 24/7, the fur farmers have no emotional

attachment or love for the animals like an exotic

pet owner would, and the animals in fur farming are

killed without legimate reasons. Exotic pet owners

don't kill their animals without legimate reasons

such as if the animal has rabies or if the animal

escapes and they are unable to recapture it, or if

the animal is attacking them or someone else,etc.

How do I know fur farmers don't love their animals?

Because you couldn't kill something or someone you

love unless it was extreme circumstances such as

pity-killing because the animal was suffering.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Juska » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:38 pm

caninesrock wrote:What I really meant was that humans are the only animals that seem to go along destroying the environment and killing all other species.


Invasive species much? Also, dolphins kill other animals and each other, seemingly for pleasure sometimes. It's been documented. They kill other dolphins' babies as well, usually of another species that doesn't pose a threat to them.

Animals kill for their needs. So did we at one point in our evolutionary stage. We farm those animals now instead of hunting them down ourselves. I believe if you're going to argue that fur farming is wrong, you should also consider any type of farming bad, because I've heard the argument that "well, we don't need meat either". And if you're gonna go that nuts, you might as well hate crop farming and logging as well, because you're killing plants and trees, and they have feelings and needs just like animals do, but since they're not "cute and fuzzy" people don't put them "on the same level" as other animals.

It's kind of hypocritical to hate one kind of farming and not the other. Calves are kept in purposefully small, painful crates to make their meat more tender, and in some cases they're beaten to tenderize the meat before they're even killed. And you guys are complaining about foxes not having toys or something to dig in.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Ash » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:43 pm

Weasels and cats do kill for the pleasure of doing it. Weasels do not have caches. They will kill an entire henhouse and take only one chicken with them. Cats don't eat everything they kill either. Raccoons sometimes will do the same thing, but they aren't the ones who often break into henhouses. Sometimes foxes will do similar, but they don't cache each chicken. Domestic dogs chase down and kill rabbits and squirrels all the time--and there is no good reason for that.

As for your argument regarding how it would be awful to skin a dog, I really would have no problem with it. I don't see why it is illegal when you can skin other animals. In fact, the fur of millions of dogs being put down in shelters could be used in the fur industry and would actually help reduce the number of foxes and mink being killed.

I don't know why so many people think animals are better than people. At least humans can have ethics, whereas animals don't understand the concept. If animals were able to think like humans, I'm sure they would have just as many corrupt ideas as well as good, nice ideas too.

The wild is a horrible place. I'm sure any animal would prefer the temporary safety and healthy environment of a responsibly-run fur farm than being torn apart by predators and plagued by disease.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Juska » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:53 pm

Ash wrote:The wild is a horrible place. I'm sure any animal would prefer the temporary safety and healthy environment of a responsibly-run fur farm than being torn apart by predators and plagued by disease.


That's what I've been saying too. It's not like they know it, but it's definitely better by any standard. There's a reason most animals can't survive in the wild alone without experience, and that's why even most wild animals die within the first few months of life. Can you imagine being a baby anything, and getting eaten alive by a snake, or carried off by a hawk? I think I'd rather not go through all that stress of trying to survive on my own, and when my time came, it would be swift and painless.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Well there is no debate we need to wear clothes especially clothes that keep us warm in cold areas. Fur is the only natural fiber that will keep you warm in very cold weather. So your argument would be that everyone should use synthetic fiber to keep warm. I'm sure you think this causes less harm since no animal is killed to make it, but that's not true. Making synthetics is bad for the environment so indirectly kills a lot more animals that animals that are killed to make a coat. Animals killed to make a coat are replaced by farming. Animals killed due to making of synthetic clothing can't be replaced unless the environment is replaced as well. It could save a lot of animals and the environment if more people did use fur.

"over 90% of fur comes from humane certified farms."
It would help if the fox farmers would be as open as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZejGndpWEkw

Mink again but they show some fox too at the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sPa4eeNWz0

Finland but you get a better look at the [s]fox cages[/s] raccoon dog cages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpxM3Y5B498
Gee don't they look all pissed off and upset about their live(not)

No English as all but shows the cages nicely(4 stories for the mink it looks like)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppkdq_b0jHc

Would they enjoy out of cage time sure but are they in some sort of horrible state due to not having that. I don't think so. At least not in the 90%+ farms that are run right(90% certified but I'm sure not all not certified suck). The study I quoted showed they actually had less stress hormones and signs than those in the larger enclosures(they were not expecting that. They were not trying to prove small cages were good).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf9zvh09EFI

Foxes!! The one with the spot a mutation of arctic shadow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9u1AZn17ec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=S2K7HUXS_EM

Also no I am not against fur of dogs and cats or even eating them. I do not put one species above another that way. I don't see that what they are raised for matter but only how they are treated. The vast majority treat them well(It's good business to do so).
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Re: fur farming

Postby caninesrock » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:16 pm

@Juska:Invasive species are only invasive because we put them there. Us humans are the real invasive species. We destroy entire ecosystems and kill off species into extinction. That other species probably also eats fish and thus they pose a threat by eating the same food source that dolphins do. I don't know who made up the rumor that we don't need meat,but if you ask any dieticion(sp?) or doctor, they will say you do need meat in order to be completely healthy and not malnutrished. The only way to not eat meat is to take protein pills,which likely come from either one of two things:actual meat in which case the vegans are indirectly eating meat or from artificial chemicals that are probably harmful to the environment and kill even more animals. There is a reason meat is on the food pyramid. As for the thing about plants having feelings, that's an even more bizarre rumor. I don't know where you heard that,but if you ask any scientist, they'll tell you that the only thing that makes plants considered living organisms is that they breathe and need food and water to survive. Plants don't have feelings because they have no brains. It's not hypocritical when one kind of farming is necessary and the other is not. People can say otherwise but it's a scientific fact that people need protein and other nutrients that they can only get naturally from meat.

@Ash: Just because weasels don't have caches doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't plan on coming back to the henhouse in the future when food is scarce,but either didn't get a chance to because they were caught and killed or escaped but then were too frightened to return to the kill site even though they knew they had food there. As for cats, it's probably remnants of their hunting instincts. They don't eat the prey because they aren't hungry,but they are acting out there instincts. They are coded by nature to kill prey. Again raccoons and foxes probably were planning on returning to the kill in the future in a time when food is scarce.
As for the dogs, it's the same thing as with the cats. It's remnants of their hunting instincts,but they don't eat the prey because they aren't hungry.

You're talking about dogs already killed at shelters. But what if dogs were actually kept in small cages and bred just to be killed for their fur? I suppose everyone thinks differently,but I don't see how anyone could own an animal as a pet,but yet not have a problem with others of that same kind of animal being killed for unneccessary reasons. I know if I owned a fox or a dog, every fox or dog that was killed would remind me of my pet and I would think of how horrible it would be if someone killed my pet for its fur.

I never said that I thought animals were better than people. However, the fact that animals do bad things because they don't have a sense of ethics actually makes them less cruel than humans. Animals do what they do because they don't know any better. Humans know full well when they're doing something wrong and yet they do it anyway not caring who or what they hurt or destroy or how much unneccessary pain and suffering they cause.

@Juska: Atleast alot of animals in the wild live past six months of age. Granted alot also get eaten when they're young,but they aren't kept in cages just to be killed before they even reach a year old just so someone can steal their skin for themselves. Actually, I don't know about foxes or minks,but we just had a speaker series at our zoo, Dr. Doug Smith, one of the leaders of the Yellowstone gray wolf reintroduction program, and he said that the average lifespan for a wild wolf is 4 to 6 years. There's a big difference between 6 years and 6 months of life. And also, life in the wild is not all work and no play. He showed us a video of wolf pups that had already reached the size of adult wolves playing around and generally having fun with each other instead of helping the adults hunt.

@TG:You are forgetting about wool. It works just as good as fur, it's natural and not synthetic, and the sheep don't have to be killed in order for it to be harvested. I never said that I supported synthetic fiber or that I thought that was a solution. I was fully aware of the harmful effects of synthetic fibers,but I was not thinking of it. I was thinking of wool as an alternative. It would also save the environment and the fur-farmed animals if people would just settle for wool. My issue is not whether or not the animals are upset by their life,but the fact that there is no respect for their life. To fur-farmers, they're just money, not living creatures. One dies, no probelm, let's just skin it and then breed some more. They're treated as replacable objects instead of irreplacable living,intelligent organisms with individual personalities and souls as unique as that of humans. I'm angry not how they are treated when they are alive so much as it's not as cruel as it could be,but the fact that they are killed in mass numbers at such young ages for no good reason.
They could keep the foxes and minks and raccoon dogs in zoo habitats,give them toys, play with them, feed them the best food, and I'd still be against the fur industry becuase of the fact that animals are killed without good reason. You bring up the point about the cold. But I'm pretty sure that 90% of people who buy fur aren't thinking about how warm it will keep them,but about how pretty the coat will look on them.

I don't treat one species over another either. Although I'd never eat dogs or cats myself, I don't mind that other people do because meat eating is necessary.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Lasergrl » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:07 am

[quote="caninesrock issue is not whether or not the animals are upset by their life,but the fact that there is no respect for their life. To fur-farmers, they're just money, not living creatures. One dies, no probelm, let's just skin it and then breed some more. They're treated as replacable objects instead of irreplacable living,intelligent organisms with individual personalities and souls as unique as that of humans. I'm angry not how they are treated when they are alive so much as it's not as cruel as it could be,but the fact that they are killed in mass numbers at such young ages for no good reason.
.[/quote]

But the animal doesnt care one red cent why they are killed. Even if it is for a reason that is a good reason in your mind, its life is gone. The animal isnt even aware of its fate. It sounds to me that your fear of death is being projected onto the animal. I have many many pet species and many of the same species that i will go out and butcher. Quite doable once you get into it. usually you reserve your emotions for the 'breeders'. Anything born a male has its fate descided at birth.
I also dont understand why making money is evil. this is just our human barter system. If they traded the furs for food instead of money would that somehow make things any different? money is what makes our world go round and it is what keeps us fed and warm and housed. It is VERY important, it is a matter of life and death.
I used to feel like you do, I really did. then I actually worked with animals, alot of animals. Once you start working with carnivores you will realize that with life comes death and what really matters is that it was comfortable and not stressed.
I have a fennec, and no i dont have a problem with one i dont know being used as fur. I have a serval, but do not have a problem with them being sustainably hunted, and no I would not have a problem with dogs being farmed if done responsibly. They already are actually raised for many other reasons in a cage, marshal farm beagles for example. many a kill shelter has seen a puppy live its entire life in a cage untill it was killed for lack of a home.
A fox doesnt crave toys, or human attention. it wants security, food, and reproduction.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:25 am

Not really. There are some problems with wool. Wool is very heavy fox, rabbit and mink fur is not. A few well insulated light layers are much better at keeping you warm than one heavy layer. I have a wool coat and it's very heavy and bulky.

Wool is not water proof or resistant. You might be able to spray it with something to help but it wont proof it as it's very porous. The fur with it's cured hide attached is very good at keeping water out. You could maybe simulate this effect naturally by putting cow leather over the wool but then I have a leather coat and it is very heavy too. Wearing both would be quite a work out with the weight and bulky(would probably be kinda hard to move as well).

There are lamb skin coats with fleece still attached but then your essentially wearing sheep fur.

There is no natural substitute for fur that can give you the same benefits.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Ash » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:21 am

Sorry that I thought you said animals were better than humans. I must have interpreted what you wrote incorrectly, or misread. :red-face:

Cats do kill for pleasure. They play with their food before they kill it. I tried to save this cute little mole from a tabby cat when I was little. The cat was being mean to it--batting it around, letting it run, then pushing it back into a corner. The mole was terrified and scrambling ot get away. The cat did this for about ten minutes. I tried to stop it, then I had to run back into the house (we had a huge yard, so it was a good run) and got my mom. She came out to see what was happening, and then she ran back inside (long run) and got a broom to scare the cat away. You can't tell me that cat was hunting for ten minutes. It was having fun. It only stopped playing when it looked like my mom might actually let the mole get away. As soon as it stopped enjoying its game, it killed it and ran off. I've seen cats do the same with lizards, except lizards usually get away since they're speedy devils. ;)

As for dogs, if you say they have no joy chasing squirrels, then how do they have any fun chasing a ball? It's the same thing to them--something goes flying off and they go to chase it. If you say they don't enjoy catching squirrels, you're telling me dogs don't enjoy playing fetch. Fortunately we can train most dogs to chase balls instead of squirrels. :) (If not, I don't think I would ever play fetch with a dog!)

I've never heard of weasels returning to the site of their kills. They take one and leave. Maybe that's just because the farmer wouldn't just leave all the dead chickens in one spot, so you may be right on that. I suppose I don't know enough about weasel behavior to know for sure.

Contrary to popular opinion, animals do not kill solely to survive. Sometimes they just kill. That's not to say that animals are "murderers" or that they're "bad." Animals aren't capable of that. They're simply animals. They have personalities, instincts, and different ideas of what is fun. And they don't really think about it.

I guess what I'm just trying to say is that animals can be pretty horrible to each other, and I think treating farmed animals humanely before they're skinned for their fur is way better than what other animals do. So I don't think humans should be condemned for choosing to wear fur when the animals are much better off.

I can understand why it would be hard to have a pet fox and see other people wearing fox fur. I completely see where you're coming from. What's funny is I have a really hard time with people killing snakes; it's odd that killing mammals doesn't bother me as much, but snakes are just so cute. I keep them as pets and love them to death. Snakes are my favorite animal (believe it or not!). But just because those are my emotions doesn't mean I should be against people who kill snakes humanely--either to eat or to use their leather, or even for safety. In fact, I'm not against people who do that. I think if they treat the animal humanely up until it's euthanized there isn't a problem.

I used to be against fur farms too. It was only when I started looking into other aspects of farming that I understood why I should not be against them. I think it would be hypocritical to say it's okay to kill a cow but not a fox. Both are smart, and there are many people who have an appreciation for both animals. I may not be able to see the fascination some people have with cows and goats (sorry lasergrl), but I can understand how they should not be viewed any differently than foxes.
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Re: fur farming

Postby FrayWolf » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:48 am

I strongly support fur farms, and I will have one of my own one day. But I only support humane ones like Daves and most of them that are in America/Canada. However I do not agree for animals dying for the sake of fashion, I find it disrespectful to the animal which died, only fur which is actually worn to keep warm like I do myself. (I'm a trapper so I have to do a lot of walking outside when its super cold) But my foxes will only be sold to responsible pet owners, sanctuaries, and the pelts will only go to the taxidermy industry where the animal can be admired and respected for countless years to come even after death.

Please do not get me wrong, I LOVE animals, and they are my life. And I have decided this is what I wanted to do ever since I got my beloved arctic fox, Sabre (rest in peace my baby, I think about you every day) I miss him so much, I am litterly crying as I type thinking of him-I would not be here today if it were not for him...

I absolutely love foxes and their genetics fascinate me! I am a fox lover, begginer taxidermist, and pelt collecter so to me this is the perfect job for me that combinds all my interests!

Sorry this is very badly written I'm on a phone and its super annoying. And there is so much more I would have liked to have added to this.
He was only a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes.
But I have made him my friend, and now he is unique to all the world... ❤︎
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Re: fur farming

Postby Nìmwey » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:58 pm

Well you got me curious. What counts as "humane"?

Here in Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland) we often try to "boast" about how awesome our animal welfare is, but I've seen a lot from the fur farms in these countries, and I'm not the slightest impressed.

Even the animals that look fine (no wounds, missing limbs or tails, or obvious illnesses), still seem to have an absolutely awful life. Tiny cubic crate, wire floor, no enrichment, just pacing back and forth and other stereotypical behaviors. (Mind you, it is illegal for me to keep a dog or cat in a cage even for just a second. In a car crate, it's illegal as soon as the car is not rolling. It is illegal to have a macaw in a cage that is "only" 3.5 meters wide and 1.7 meters deep, even if it only sleeps in it. But fur farms of this sort are okay. As is locking sows in stalls they can't move in, but that's a different topic...)

To show you what I'm talking about, this is Norway: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dyrsfrihet/sets/
Lots of different fur farms, year after year, same thing.
Finland: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... in_Finland
And as for Sweden, I saw a documentary about that (not an AR piece, it was actually meant to paint fur farms in a good light - and it did the opposite for me). I also saw this on a medieval market a few weeks ago, a mink with obvious wounds in its face, and to me it looks like they got there when the animal was alive, not in the tanning process (I've seen lots of cow hides with tanning "scars".)

Image

But I take it you would not support those at all.
I'm not a vegan and never intend to be, so I don't think it's inherently wrong to kill animals for food say, if it's done ethically and humanely. Same for clothes, if you really need it (I mean I use leather sometimes). But how make a fur farm humane?

Are there really fur farms (and I haven't read this whole thread) that have huge cages, that let their animals feel real grass under their paws, that let them have a variety of toys and enrichment, and where you can see no wounds, stereotypical behaviors, or other horrors?
My main interest is in parrots, dogs, toothed whales and snakes.
Future animals I want to have when we have land are camels, wolfdogs/wolves, coyotes or jackals, striped hyena or aardwolf. Also poultry, rabbits water buffalo and/or yak for livestock.
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Re: fur farming

Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:52 pm

How do you prevent an animal from ever getting a wound? Even my pets get wounds sometimes. There was the whole ordeal where Aurora broke her claw off and was pretty bloody. Guess if she were a fur farm animal it would have been proof of how evil I was cuz her conditions were inhumane enough to allow a wound, especially when she cut her other hand shortly after and I never did figure out how she kept doing it. I think it's getting a bit extreme that no wounds should ever happen. Especially if a place has 100s of animals. Some places are bad but they are going to be in minority as lots of animals with wounds will destroy profits fast. The farmers, like other farmers, do not get all that much for the products to begin with to be having to sell them for super cheap due to being marred by scars. As for seeing a hide with wounds, I think many may euthanize rather than treat and then sell at a discount compared to what they would normally get rather than treat and that can be a long difficult process with untame animals(Aurora sure wasn't fun and she's kinda half tame, really darn stressful for her).

Many of the fur associations have rules saying that they need a number of platforms and nest boxes and enrichment. On the other hand if not feeling grass is inhumane I know a lot of indoor cat owners who need to be arrested.

If you're like Pat and just wont ever support them unless they have huge cages like pets would then we just disagree. No none have big zoo like enclosures with lots of pretty plants but they are given decent amounts of room. Like most of those mink cages look tiny but are actually at least 2 levels so not as bad a the photos look that just crop down to one section. There will always be a difference of standards between livestock and pets.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Ash » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:18 am

Have you seen how Dave (Tiny Tracks, member here and pet fox breeder) keeps his foxes? He pelts some each year, and also pelts the ones he can't sell as pets.

Here's his website that shows pictures of his foxes in their cages: http://www.tinytracksexoticanimals.com/fox.html.

The one thing I can say about Dave is that he takes great care of his animals. I would prefer most fur farmers kept their foxes the way Dave does. ;)

Some of those pictures you linked to do look awful, but I always have a hard time believing pictures from AR websites. Mostly because AR activists sometimes purposefully neglect or harm animals. They also have millions of pictures to pull from. So if a farm has, say, 1000 foxes, they will upload hundreds of pictures of the one or two foxes that are sick or wounded. It is very slanted.

That's not saying neglect never happens on fur farms. But it really isn't as common as people make you believe--at least, not in the US. Bad care and stress result in a bad pelt.

For me, any animal that has a relatively stress-free life, is fed and watered, and is killed painlessly is an animal well-taken care of (well, as far as livestock goes; we do hold pet owners to a higher standard as TG mentioned).

Keep in mind, an elevated cage is actually a lot more sanitary. The waste falls right down through. The wire also doesn't hurt their feet like many people think.

As I also mentioned in the other thread, most of the animals are really just there temporarily. So the lack of space is not an issue for most of them.

Do I think conditions could be a bit better? Yes. But personally, I think Dave's are ideal for a farmer. They're larger than what most fur farmers keep their animals in. Also a lot more clean-looking, but that may just be because they're made out of wood and wire (which always looks more aesthetically pleasing than just straight wire).

Here's an honest fur-farming youtube video about mink farming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbb9agOXGt8. Not sugar-coated. Just what it's like. Nothing horrible here.

I wanted to show you another video of a mink farm here in Utah, USA where I live. It was a very open and honest video from a family of fur farmers. You could really tell they cared about their mink, but they still did see them as livestock. I can't find the video anymore. Looks like they took it down. I know here in Utah a farm got raided in 2008. I think about 6000 mink were set loose.

Problem is, it doesn't matter to most people who are against fur how the animals are raised. They could be living in pristine pet-quality conditions, and people would still go burn the place down just because.

I think we can always strive for better care. And as consumers we may choose to support what we want. And our choices are what determines what industries flourish or fail. Protesting is legal and okay (even if it is ignorant in most cases), but I think we can all agree resorting to criminal activity and literally destroying someone's property is wrong and unjustifiable.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Nìmwey » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:45 am

With wounds, I'm talking about these things:

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Those are not normal. They are created by the environment the animals live in. And don't tell me you've seen a well-kept pet with wounds like that. :shock:

And the large wounds in the face of that mink I saw was not normal either, they looked the same as these horrors I've seen on live fur farm animals before.

Minks live almost like otters, they need water to swim in to be happy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0kjXUAxtH4
Neither foxes, minks nor any other animal should live their whole life in a tiny cubic crate with wire floor and no enrichment, which is what we're seeing in the fur industry.

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(Don't tell me pet owners or zoos keep their animals like this.)

This is a life no one deserves.
Those of you with foxes, would you want your foxes living like this?

Ash: Yes, that's probably the best I've seen so far as fur farms go. Still, why the wire floor? It can't be good for their feet, and as far as I know, is only to keep the coat clean. Other animals don't need wire floor to keep clean, why can you not just clean the cage? :shock: Animals are not supposed to be in their own filth anyway.
Those pictures are from inspections of loads and loads of known fur farms. Not a few un-sourced images that could easily have been forged by AR extremists.
My main interest is in parrots, dogs, toothed whales and snakes.
Future animals I want to have when we have land are camels, wolfdogs/wolves, coyotes or jackals, striped hyena or aardwolf. Also poultry, rabbits water buffalo and/or yak for livestock.
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Re: fur farming

Postby Ash » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:25 pm

Yeah, those injuries look pretty awful. That's disgusting. Poor animals. :( No excuse for some of those injuries. Probably didn't happen overnight either.

I know fur farms in the USA are much more regulated than most. I don't know about standards in other countries, but if a fur farm over here in the US had their foxes in those types of conditions, then they'd have been shut down long ago. So I guess I can say that I support farms here in the US. I don't know too much about the ones in other countries.

As far as living in a small cage its entire life--keep in mind those animals do not even live for a year. That's why the temporary housing thing makes me feel different about that. If those animals were living like that long term then I think there would need to be changes to how they were housed.

Most of the pictures in my fur book have foxes in bigger cages than those that you posted. And they are lots of times not housed singly--they have a friend to be with. Some of them seem to have cages about the same size of Tiny Tracks' cages.

The reason for the wire is because it just isn't practical to keep hundreds and hundreds of animals on the ground. That would make it impossible for the farmers to keep the number of animals that they do. Instead of just taking a rake once a week and raking out all the feces that have dropped, they would have to intrude into an untamed animal's personal space and pick up everything. That would honestly be WAY more stressful I think for the animal than having it live on wire for 8 months.

Wire doesn't hurt their feet. Ifrit, my red, would walk along horizontal chainlink and wire all the time when I had her enclosure set up a certain way. Foxes have webbing between their toes and can easily separate their toes. So they learn to grip the wire appropriately.

But, yes, the pictures you posted are inexcusable.

What about these cages here:
http://www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=237387.0;attach=114819;image (This is one of Dave's, not his usual cage, but this is one of the cages most commonly used by farms)

Here are some foxes in standard cages at fur farms:
http://www.eau.ee/~alo/karusloomad/rebased/images/mutandid/platinum.jpg

http://fennecfoxes.webs.com/gold%20platinum.jpg

http://www.eau.ee/~alo/karusloomad/rebased/images/mutandid/22polarfox.jpg

This one here looks a lot like Dave's setup.
http://usfoxshipperscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/10.-Silver-fox-and-marble-white.png

Now, here's a picture that looks like this animal is being treated poorly when it in fact is not.
http://www.animalwritings.com/2005/images/fur50.jpg These are the types of pictures that AR activists will show you most of the time of an "abused" fox at a fur farm.
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/fox-fur-08.jpg
http://www1.american.edu/ted/images2/CAGED_FO.gif
http://www.zoocrew.eu/images/spotlight/cwi/ringsofshame/Foxincage_s.jpg
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LEp636HYaPA/hqdefault.jpg

And these two are probably pretty happy being kept together. The cage looks a bit junky and saggy, so the farmer could do better there. But as far as the well-being of the foxes, I think they are content. http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LEp636HYaPA/hqdefault.jpg

Sorry for all the links, lol. But I think it's important to show a lot more photos of fur farm foxes that are being kept appropriately.

Oh, and I found this last one. This is a photo being used by ALF (Animal Liberation Front, very extreme AR terrorist group) to protest against fur farms. If this is the worst they could find at this fur farm, then it really isn't so bad at all: http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Actions-USA/EricksonFur66.jpg. Those foxes have a lot of room, a lot like Dave's.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas

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