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Cropping and Docking

Hunting/Farming/Taxidermy, any topic that may get heated debate.

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Legend
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Cropping and Docking

Postby Legend » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:19 am

Hey guys, hope everyone is doing well : )


I would like to get a Doberman one day, and as I was researching them that led me to the subject of cropping and docking. What I found was that it was a somewhat controversial topic, with some arguing that is an unnecessary procedure which can cause the dogs unnecessary pain, whilst others argue that if done from a young age the procedure is not significant and can actually help with some health issues.

Let me just say that I am still researching and don't know all the ins and out's yet. But from what I 'have' read, it seems to me that it is a little drastic to call the procedure 'mutilation'. I was just curious about everyone's thoughts on the subject.

I apologize if this should be in the controversial animal topic, but I think this is a subject that can be talked about with decorum(or so I hope).

Have a good day everyone.
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Lasergrl
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Lasergrl » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:04 am

Docking the tail is pretty harmless from observation. They are a few days old, and they experience no change in behavior that indicates a pain sensation. It is a very invasive and painfull procedure when done as adults.
Ears, depends on the doctor! Very very important to go to a very experienced doc. Around these parts you have to drive a couple hours to have it done by a good vet. Its worth it. Nothing uglier then a bad crop job. They are puppies when its done and they play and romp as if nothing happened. Its much easier on them then a spay. It is itchy when you change the wraps but once the new wrap is on they continue to play. A poorly done ear can be chronic pain and infection like and botched surgery.

I personally preffer a tail on almost every breed, the ears though, a dobie, they just look goofy with floppy ears.
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Legend » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:09 am

Makes perfect sense, I appreciate your thoughts lg. To tell you the truth that's kinda how I saw things as well. It's good to know that if done from a young age it doesnt' affect them so severly as it would an adult.

I was gonna mention about them looking odd with floppy ears, but didn't want to come off as haughty or anything. I'm glad someone agrees with me on that lol.

Thanks for your time
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Juska » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:03 pm

I agree about floppy ears on a dobie looking silly. Same with min pins, boxers, bull terriers and pit bulls (though with pitties most people probably get the image of a fighting dog in their head when they see a cropped one). It's like choosing to circumcise your child after he's born, he's not gonna remember it and pain is minimal at best. I don't think either should be done after puppy-hood however since it can be most painful and stressful to the dog.
Pet parent of Emo the border collie mix, Conte the schnoodle and Namira the harlequin cat!
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Lasergrl » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:48 pm

Its kinda funny that people associate the cropped pit ears with fighting. The real fighting pits, back when it was considered a gentlemens sport, were NEVER cropped. Its a newer thing that is being done with the over muscled non functional american pits, all about image.
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Juska » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:23 am

I will say that I like schnauzer ears uncropped better than cropped. Makes their heads look too tiny for their bodies XD Matt's grandfather has a dog that he rescued in Mexico named Poncho, who's a schnauzer mix and has uncropped ears and tail, and he's very cute :)
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby mrsringo » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:19 pm

I have to kindly disagree with the whole cropped/floppy ear thing... the docking of the tails is more so an easier "painless" operation... they are only a few days old but it's still taking a few vertebrae off of the dog's tail... i would also compare this to a circumcision though. It's not a fun thing to watch, nonetheless. I personally would rather my dog not have to go through this procedure if not necessary. The ears, though, I have heard is an extremely painful procedure. I haven't done any research on it, but all of the Veterinarians I have worked for have refused to do the surgery, due to it being solely cosmetic and painful. "It's like turning the ear completely around", is what I remember them saying.. but again, this is word of mouth, not research. I prefer all breeds with floppy ears, I think it gives them character and the appearance of purity.. like they're always puppies! Which is a good way to remember your faithful companions.

Anyway, your Doberman is YOUR dog, so you decide what you would like to have done or not done, just wanted to give my alternate view on the issue. :bear:

And share pictures when you get your baby! I love Dobermans-- cropped ears or not, it doesn't affect their awesome and sweet personalities and their gorgeousness!! <3
--- Meg <3 :)

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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby dusky_beauty » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:20 am

In my observation as a dog person, the dogs who have their tails docked always seem more nervous. A fellow enthusiast told me once that a dog's tail is tied to his confidence and well being. He alleged that if you chop off a dog's tail for the sake of looks, you are doing a real disservice to the creature's mental well being. The more dogs I meet, the more this seems to be true. Every Rottie or dobie I've met that still had a tail seemed so much more at ease that those I have met that did not. Welsh corgis are really the only dogs I've seen that I would estimate a docking as important to hygiene and well being (their legs are too short to squat and poo.)
Just an opinion I've come to through my dog whispering.
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby mrsringo » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:47 am

Hmm, I've never heard that theory but that's very interesting! I could see that, considering that it's one of those role-establishing characteristics for a wolf. I'll be sure to pay more attention now! :)
--- Meg <3 :)

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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Lasergrl » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:40 am

How does one explaine english bulldogs, dobermans, boxers, wich are some of the most confident breeds there are?
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby mrsringo » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:38 pm

Well, for starters, English Bulldogs have SO many many problems with their tails. I'm not sure they are actually docked or if they're born that way because they have screw tails like pigs and have lots of genetic problems with the tail being embedded in their skin, to even further their problems with allergies and skin fold Pyoderma. A LOT of Dobermans & Boxers I have met that have their tails docked vs. not docked definitely seem more nervous and/or aggressive or have social issues now that I think about it. The Doberman and Boxer breeds in general are very confident though, but the Boxers I have met that have their whole tails have generally been a lot more friendly and social.
--- Meg <3 :)

Image <--- My doggies when they were both puppies! :3
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Lasergrl » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:46 pm

Yes bulldogs have tons of issues with the tail in general but, it isnt social, and thats what is being focused on (they are born that way and some are docked if born long). The american dobermans are poorly bred compared to the imported ones (I have alot of experience with german and ugoslavian (SP) ones) and they are noble and bold, but not aggressive. I have met plenty with and without tails and I just dont see a connection. The tail is only a minor part in body language and even the angle of the head and eye is important in language. Then there are some breeds like beagles that have ears and tails but social skills are bred out of them. They often dont great but just run up and pounce. There is so much to dog language, the tail being docked is minor and I would really hesitate to use that as a reason against the procedure. besides, our pet dogs are not running wild in packs and they should be controled on a leash when meeting new dogs if you are being responsible anyways.
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby Juska » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:41 pm

I'd think that if the tail was docked at birth, they wouldn't notice they didn't have one? The tail is still there, they can still use it, it's just a might smaller than others with a whole one. I don't see how it would affect their social well-being.
Pet parent of Emo the border collie mix, Conte the schnoodle and Namira the harlequin cat!
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby mrsringo » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:51 pm

We're focusing on the pros and cons of docking a tail/cropping ears, so the fact that English Bulldogs have issues with theirs, is an issue. There are also claims that docking the tail could be cause for incontinence in some dogs but I'm not sure if this is yet proven or not. I just think about the fact that you're literally shortening the "spine" of a dog, how on earth could that not be painful? I do agree that there are many more things than just the tail that makes the dog's social behavior. Thinking about Beagles and the way they play makes me laugh! I've never thought about that, but I can picture a friend of mine's Puggle running up to random dogs and acting crazy without the "beginning" of socializing skills towards the unfamiliar dog, but our dogs nowadays are basically "Juveniles" all of their lives as far as the way they are all very puppy-like, so formal introductions aren't always necessary for pups. Also, at dog parks, our pet dogs do "run in packs" as they play, without leashes being necessary, as long as you have a friendly dog.

Maybe the fact that a dog does/doesn't "have" a tail isn't an issue with socialization, but it's always good to try to look at both sides of it.
--- Meg <3 :)

Image <--- My doggies when they were both puppies! :3
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Re: Cropping and Docking

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:06 pm

The spinal cord in dogs ends at approximately the sixth lumbar (L6) vertebra (low-back area). You are not cutting the spinal cord. In cats it ends at about the 5th.

There are dogs that constantly bloody their tails from wagging them against things.

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