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Chimp Tragedy

Monkeys, lemurs, bushbabies, Any Type or Size of Primate

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zillahkatz
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Postby zillahkatz » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:00 am

H F, Rag -
Irresponsible people do irresponsible things. We are all individuals and it's a beautiful thing. Amen to brain power which, apparently, the lady with the inappropriate relationship with the chimp was lacking. Severely. Stupid people own stupid domestic dogs too. (The ones that attack friends, neighbors, children or just get into your garbage constantly - like the dogs from up the dirt road. I yelled at them lots today. Screaming "Go Home!" and waving your arms is god for the soul. The non-negleted dogs of the 'hood are welcome...)

Anyway - Border Collies are not all that removed from foxes. In the Belyayev experiments the critters look JUST like cow dogs! Also, the Spitz is one of the forefathers of the Border Collie... just an FYI.

Funny thing is that Sion likes to play this game where he peeks around a chair, table, other solid object, and as you look back and forth around the corner, so does he. He "weaves" back and forth like a cutting horse when he's in play mode. He also thinks it's double extra fun to jump on us in the morning and throw his toys onto us so we'll play "fetch" with him.

Yeah - sure I get LOTS of sleep :lol:
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Postby JBG » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:36 pm

When they interviewed the victim of the chimp attack, it was clear that the animal did not just suddenly snap. The animal's cage (not room) had to be rewelded. The animal hurled a desk across the cage. The animal's hands were often bruised and bloody from hitting the bars.

This was no tame animal that suddenly went off the deep end.
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Postby pat » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:12 am

JBG wrote:When they interviewed the victim of the chimp attack, it was clear that the animal did not just suddenly snap. The animal's cage (not room) had to be rewelded. The animal hurled a desk across the cage. The animal's hands were often bruised and bloody from hitting the bars.

This was no tame animal that suddenly went off the deep end.


now, that makes sense to me. I was under the impression (by the way the owner talked) this chimp had free run of the house all the time, slept with the owner, ate with the owner etc.(unless that was the news media version). keeping a large animal in a "cage" is asking for trouble

I seen one of the interviews from the victim. poor woman had to wear a vail to cover her face.

I don't know much about chimps, but, with many exotics that live in the house, should be fixed. also, never have a friend or relative with an near the animals, especially an out of control animal.

when people keep large animals, the animals should always be under the owners control, also have plans for "what if"

even though my bears are not agressive, I am always on guard with them, and never let anyone in the pen, or close to the pen, unless I am with them. I also have a tazer, (hope I never have to use it)

I also don't let my coons and foxes with people.
better to be safe than sorry.
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Postby JBG » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:29 am

pat wrote:
JBG wrote:When they interviewed the victim of the chimp attack, it was clear that the animal did not just suddenly snap. The animal's cage (not room) had to be rewelded. The animal hurled a desk across the cage. The animal's hands were often bruised and bloody from hitting the bars.

This was no tame animal that suddenly went off the deep end.


now, that makes sense to me. I was under the impression (by the way the owner talked) this chimp had free run of the house all the time, slept with the owner, ate with the owner etc.(unless that was the news media version). keeping a large animal in a "cage" is asking for trouble
I suspect the "news media" version was drawn from news reports from his 2003 escape from a car and scampering around Stamford, Connecticut. Travis would have been around 7 or 8 at that point, or at a "pre-dangerous" stage. 6 years later is a different story.

The fact is that Xanax was found in the chimp's system. Whether that was administered just before the attack is not important. The likelihood is that the chimp was being medicated for agitation, which would occur when a "tame" animal's instincts are starting to kick in and instinctively realizes that a suburban Stamford home is no place for a chimp. Also, no doubt, she recognized that her legal "story" had to be that she had no reason to believe that the chimp would go off the deep end.
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Postby pat » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:23 pm

I didn't know the he escapted in the past.

I agree with you.

if xanax has to given to an animal, then there is a problem that this woman should have realized. pills don't cure unknown problems.

I assume this woman never had any type of large outside pen for travis?

it is such a sad situation. when things like this happens, it makes all the responsible owners look bad :cry:

incidents like this is what is hurting us from owning any exotic.
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Postby JBG » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:57 pm

pat wrote:I didn't know the he escapted in the past.


A Runaway Chimpanzee Has the Law on Its Side (link) Excerpt below:

New York Times wrote:October 26, 2003

A Runaway Chimpanzee Has the Law on Its Side

By JEFF HOLTZ
The Stamford couple whose 10-year-old, 175-pound chimpanzee held police officers at bay in downtown Stamford last Sunday night for about two hours after escaping from their S.U.V. do not need a permit to own the animal.

*****************

He said his department was looking to get legislation passed in the next session making it necessary for the owners of large primates to have permits. ''We are going to propose that those who own primates that weigh over 50 pounds at maturity be required to get permits, he said.

The escape of the chimpanzee, which was eventually coerced back into the vehicle, came two weeks after the police in Harlem removed a 425-pound Siberian tiger from an apartment in a public housing complex by subduing it with a tranquilizer dart.

The shelter manager for Stamford's Animal Control Department, Lynn M. DellaBianca, said the city was not equipped to use a similar procedure with the chimp. Stamford police attempted to find such equipment, but were unsuccessful.


pat wrote:I agree with you.

if xanax has to given to an animal, then there is a problem that this woman should have realized. pills don't cure unknown problems.

I agree. I suspect that the Xanax was used since the problem that a socialized wild animal has is stress; it loves its surrogate parents, but feels stirrings of aggressive instincts.
pat wrote:I assume this woman never had any type of large outside pen for travis?
Correct. Wouldn't work with winter climate in Connecticut.
pat wrote:it is such a sad situation. when things like this happens, it makes all the responsible owners look bad :cry:

incidents like this is what is hurting us from owning any exotic.

On the other hand my question to you is how one solves the problem with most exotics, that with maturity at least some aggressive impulses stir, and can make even a 20 lb. bobcat or cerval not much of a bargain.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:02 pm

The problem with most primates is the fact they live in groups in the wild. Not that they necessarily need their own kind but I think that helps a lot. They see you as their tribe. All humans are above them in the tribe. It is natural instinct to challenge your way up the tribe.

It's been talked about a lot recently on one of my groups about monkeys, though not in relation to this incident. They WILL challenge you, which is an attack, if you back down they lose respect for you and will always challenge you and act like they hate you. If you don't back down and can grab them and hold them down till the fit is over then they will calm down and be their old self again till they next decide to challenge you. The mistake is people are not prepared for this and think their baby will never turn on them because they love them. So when it happens they panic and get hurt and back down.

Now apply this small monkey logic to a big strong chimp and elderly lady. Yes sadly you are in for big problems.

But I know more about primates than when this first happened. Most people can't handle their loved pet attacking them but it's natural.

In this case he still never attacked the owner but it fits that the friend/employee was the lower on the totem pole she he'd fight his way up by going after her first. In interviews the victim admitted she was already afraid of him. No one should be working with animals they are afraid of, especially primates because they will see that weakness and go after it.
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Postby JBG » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:22 am

HyzenthlayForesight wrote:It's been talked about a lot recently on one of my groups about monkeys, though not in relation to this incident. They WILL challenge you, which is an attack, if you back down they lose respect for you and will always challenge you and act like they hate you. If you don't back down and can grab them and hold them down till the fit is over then they will calm down and be their old self again till they next decide to challenge you. The mistake is people are not prepared for this and think their baby will never turn on them because they love them. So when it happens they panic and get hurt and back down.
Pray tell, how many mere mortal human beings can "grab" and "hold...down" a 200 lb. chimp intent on a "challenge"? And what happens if the "challenge" occurs when you have the chimp out at the supermarket or other place they are taken around?
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Postby Ragtatter » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:57 am

JBG wrote:
HyzenthlayForesight wrote:It's been talked about a lot recently on one of my groups about monkeys, though not in relation to this incident. They WILL challenge you, which is an attack, if you back down they lose respect for you and will always challenge you and act like they hate you. If you don't back down and can grab them and hold them down till the fit is over then they will calm down and be their old self again till they next decide to challenge you. The mistake is people are not prepared for this and think their baby will never turn on them because they love them. So when it happens they panic and get hurt and back down.
Pray tell, how many mere mortal human beings can "grab" and "hold...down" a 200 lb. chimp intent on a "challenge"? And what happens if the "challenge" occurs when you have the chimp out at the supermarket or other place they are taken around?


They were talking about holding down monkeys. A chimp is not a monkey. A chimp is an ape. Nobody was suggesting anyone wrestle a chimp to the ground.
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Postby pat » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:55 am

JBG wrote:On the other hand my question to you is how one solves the problem with most exotics, that with maturity at least some aggressive impulses stir, and can make even a 20 lb. bobcat or cerval not much of a bargain.

good question. my opinion
1. I think many exotics that are not intended for breeding should be fixed within a year of thier birth.

2. the owners should understand the animal and always be on guard no matter how tame they seem. have a plan "what if"
have pepper spray and/or a tazer on hand. just in case.

3. the game officers /usda should understand captive born animals.

4. now that we have the internet for help, exotic animal owners should be chatting with with each other about their animals.
never hurts to learn more and know how everyone cares for their animal. share ideas. when someone does have a problem, share it with others, with hope, this could help others understand "problems can happen"

5. the animal should NEVER be confined for long periods of time.

6. NEVER take the animal out in public for walks for the public to see.

7. NEVER let anyone interact with the animal.

8. If there is a problem, never expect a friend or family to help confine the animal.

9. resarch, research and research on the animal that is owned.
we can never know too much.

of course, this is mostly for the larger animals.

I really don't know much about big cats, or primates.
I really don't want any animals in this class, because I know my limit.

I don't really know the whole history of travis, other than what you told me. I also don't know much about primates, except what I read here on the board, and on TV.

I personally think certain type of animals, like travis, big cats, alligaters, and certain type of snakes. should be raised by sometone that has proper room, and knowledge.
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Postby pat » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:08 am

HyzenthlayForesight wrote:In this case he still never attacked the owner but it fits that the friend/employee was the lower on the totem pole she he'd fight his way up by going after her first. In interviews the victim admitted she was already afraid of him. No one should be working with animals they are afraid of, especially primates because they will see that weakness and go after it.


I have to wonder if travis never attacked his owner. I am sure there is alot that was not mentioned by her.

I agree with the fear. the victim should not have helped with travis.
I think that was a lot to ask of a friend :cry:

you mentioned about apes having their own groups and territory in the wild. so you mean if a different ape come into their territory, they would fight with them. as we know, ape on ape, can stand up for themselves, but, people vs ape is another story.

I didn't know the victim worked for the owner of travis.

if travis was fixed at a young age, and travis was not locked in a cage, and if travis would have had a large outside pen for in the summer months. I would wonder just how much if any, travis would be.
guess it is alot of "what if" :lol:
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Postby JBG » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:09 am

pat wrote:
JBG wrote:On the other hand my question to you is how one solves the problem with most exotics, that with maturity at least some aggressive impulses stir, and can make even a 20 lb. bobcat or cerval not much of a bargain.

good question. my opinion
I didn't want to quote the whole post but I wanted to show what I was responding to.

Under those conditions how is the animal a "pet" and not a caged zoo animal in a house?
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Postby JBG » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:13 am

pat wrote:I have to wonder if travis never attacked his owner. I am sure there is alot that was not mentioned by her.
Legally she'd be an idiot to mention that.
pat wrote:I agree with the fear. the victim should not have helped with travis.
I think that was a lot to ask of a friend :cry:

I didn't know the victim worked for the owner of travis.
My understanding is she came in her role as employee.

pat wrote:if travis was fixed at a young age, and travis was not locked in a cage, and if travis would have had a large outside pen for in the summer months. I would wonder just how much if any, travis would be.
guess it is alot of "what if" :lol:
Trouble is the attack happened in February during a rather cold winter.
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Postby pat » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:30 am

JGB wrote:Under those conditions how is the animal a "pet" and not a caged zoo animal in a house?


well the word "pet" is sometimes thought by owners that their exotic is a "pet" honestly, I look at all mine as a pet.
which in alot of ways, some of these animals are pets.
I think it is important for owners to try and understand the animal and their bahavior. as we, know, is not always fool proof.
when my foxes were young, I knew their moods, and knew if they were going to bite. it is just a matter of finding a way to handle them.
forutately, they learned not to bite.

personally, I don't think it is a good idea to keep any animal confined in a house 24/7. heck, even dogs should have some outside time.
hell, even people need outside time. :lol:
I always say: "a bored animal is a bad animal"

keeping an ape in a cage in a house, is only adding to the their bad behavior. (thats my guess anyway) as I said, I really don't know much about primate and their behavior.
Last edited by pat on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pat » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:37 am

JBG,

Trouble is the attack happened in February during a rather cold winter
.when is breeding season for apes? I have no idea.

even though it was winter and the ape had to be indoors, I wonder how long travis was kept in his cage and how big it was.

what would be wrong with putting the ape in a very large room, or an outdoor heated building. I don't know, I guess it is hard to really say what the answer would be. that is if there even is an answer.

did the victim work for travis's owner with travis, or another type of job?
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