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Chimp Tragedy

Monkeys, lemurs, bushbabies, Any Type or Size of Primate

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Postby JBG » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:55 pm

pat wrote:JBG,

Trouble is the attack happened in February during a rather cold winter
.when is breeding season for apes? I have no idea.

even though it was winter and the ape had to be indoors, I wonder how long travis was kept in his cage and how big it was.

what would be wrong with putting the ape in a very large room, or an outdoor heated building. I don't know, I guess it is hard to really say what the answer would be. that is if there even is an answer.
My understanding is that it basically was a bedroom that had cage bars added to it.
pat wrote:did the victim work for travis's owner with travis, or another type of job?
She worked for their towing company, and Travis was apparently a frequent guest at the tow facility, especially in his younger days.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:19 pm

Ragtatter wrote:They were talking about holding down monkeys. A chimp is not a monkey. A chimp is an ape. Nobody was suggesting anyone wrestle a chimp to the ground.


Right it wouldn't be possible for most people to over power a chimp. You'd need some sort of extra measures to be able to over power them or fend them off. That was the point the same issue will still present themselves but no way an elderly lady could handle it.

Someone who actually works with them could say what it takes to stay in control. I think most people don't. When the acting chimps get all grown up they get retired with other chimps.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:25 pm

pat wrote:1. I think many exotics that are not intended for breeding should be fixed within a year of their birth.


Helps only minimally with primates though it works better in lemurs than the others. The drive to get higher in the pecking order is stranger than mating it's a survival drive. The top monkeys get the top food and shelter choices, etc. I agree it still needs to be done as it would be much worse if you didn't just not to expect it to cure all the ills of their aggression.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:30 pm

JBG wrote:Under those conditions how is the animal a "pet" and not a caged zoo animal in a house?


The same way fish are pets. You don't cuddle them or take them for walks or let people touch them but people still consider them pets. Though most fish aren't dangerous, it's the same sort of restrictions for different reasons.

There was that California chimp that his only problem was he bit a ladies finger, apparently by accident. But there are always some exceptions and there's no way to know if he wouldn't have become aggressive later if left in his home. It did sound like they did things right with him, just the law changed after they got him. Well, most things right, since someone did get bit.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:36 pm

The last word is that they make too big a deal out of it. Around the same time a child was mauled in the face by a loose pit bull dog, it didn't make national news. Many people have had that sort of thing happen because of dogs. The first lady to get a face transplant needed it due to a dog.

We have lived with that risk since man and wolf first began living together and it should be considered an acceptable risk regardless of species you choose to live with. OTOH you should be held responsible if your animal does injure someone else as it's your job to try and prevent that.
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Postby JBG » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:40 pm

HyzenthlayForesight wrote:The last word is that they make too big a deal out of it. Around the same time a child was mauled in the face by a loose pit bull dog, it didn't make national news. Many people have had that sort of thing happen because of dogs. The first lady to get a face transplant needed it due to a dog.

We have lived with that risk since man and wolf first began living together and it should be considered an acceptable risk regardless of species you choose to live with. OTOH you should be held responsible if your animal does injure someone else as it's your job to try and prevent that.
The difference is that the vast majority of dogs live out their lives as pets, without incident. Yes, some do bite but most don't.

What I want to know is if any chimps have lived their life span, as pets, without having to be euthanized, killed during an attack (as Travis was) or sent to a sanctuary because it became unmanageable. Or for that matter raccoons, wolves or other exotics. And whether it could be safely allowed to mingle with other people or animals.
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Postby pat » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:38 pm

JBG wrote:What I want to know is if any chimps have lived their life span, as pets, without having to be euthanized, killed during an attack (as Travis was) or sent to a sanctuary because it became unmanageable. Or for that matter raccoons, wolves or other exotics. And whether it could be safely allowed to mingle with other people or animals.


Thats an interesting question. I personally have no idea who and how many people have apes. I would assume they would live out their life in zoos or rehabs..

yes, many of the other exotics have lived out their lives.
one of the members here raised a fox from a kit, the fox lived to 14 years old. this fox was well taken care of.

I already know my foxes , bears and raccons will live out their life here.
my one raccon Larry, is truely a pet. he is now 6 years old.
he never had any mean streak in him. he never showed agresstion.
he interacts very well with all the other animals, even my coonhounds.
he understands the word "no". a few times, I smacked him (very lightly) for doing something wrong. he never showed agression.

of course, anything can happen. I know that, and I do watch for any changes in him and the other animals. their moods seem to be pretty much the same all the time.

what I dont know, is, if the travis's owner often had behavior problems.
and if so, how often. even one mood change, should have told this woman that travis should not be trusted with anyone

again, I don't know anything about apes, only what was mentioned here.

however, as mary mentioned about behavier in apes in wild.
I have to wonder if in apes in captivity that are raised in a good enviroment, if some of the "wild instincts" would not really be so dramtic.

now with bears in the wild, generally they roam solo. mostly for food reasons. sometimes they will fight over food, hibernate alone.
now with sybil and benny, they are bonded. they sleep together, eat together, and rarely fight over food. they are always together.
so I have to say, their actions are somewhat different than bears in the wild.

I really believe that most captive animals should have ample space and a good enviiroment.

even with dogs. I hear some people complaining about how bad their dog is. so they have to get rid of it, because it is out of control.
chances are, these dogs are on chains, and don't get much exercise.
my place is all fenced in (about 8 acres) my dogs can run when they want to. they release some of the energy they have.

of course, there are dogs, that don't need to have alot of run time.
guess it depends on the type of dog.
I have all coonhounds, and they really require excercise.
but, when they get older, they really get lazy..
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:55 am

JBG wrote:What I want to know is if any chimps have lived their life span, as pets, without having to be euthanized, killed during an attack (as Travis was) or sent to a sanctuary because it became unmanageable. Or for that matter raccoons, wolves or other exotics. And whether it could be safely allowed to mingle with other people or animals.


I guess that depends on your definition of pets. Yes lots of people have kept their exotics their whole lives both big and small but some like Pat's bears don't live in the house and snuggle with you while some species might be able to like my anteater.

Unfortunately because of the current climate you wont find many primate owners willing to talk about it publicly.

Currently, there are over 700 pet chimpanzees in US homes of unknown origin


At present, there may be as many as 15,000 primate pets in the United States


Assuming those numbers are correct there are plenty that stay in their homes and don't kill or maim or it would be common instead of sensational news.

While there have been a couple cases of captive chimps maiming people in recent years none have killed anyone, plenty of dogs have. The last one was in 2005. So in five years 2 attacks out of 700. Roughly one every two years.

Or another way to look at it 0.25% of pet chimps attack. Though the California chimp was at a sanctuary so not really a pet, whatever his origins might have been.

about 4 million dogs in the USA. 32 deaths a year by dog.
Every 40 seconds, someone in the United States seeks medical attention for a dog bite. There are approximately 800,000 bites per year in the United States


So percent of dogs that bite seriously 20%

Chimps aren't safer than dogs but more people are aware of the dangers and keep them responsibly and take more precautions.
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Postby Livingston Exotics » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:27 pm

JBG wrote:
HyzenthlayForesight wrote:The last word is that they make too big a deal out of it. Around the same time a child was mauled in the face by a loose pit bull dog, it didn't make national news. Many people have had that sort of thing happen because of dogs. The first lady to get a face transplant needed it due to a dog.

We have lived with that risk since man and wolf first began living together and it should be considered an acceptable risk regardless of species you choose to live with. OTOH you should be held responsible if your animal does injure someone else as it's your job to try and prevent that.
The difference is that the vast majority of dogs live out their lives as pets, without incident. Yes, some do bite but most don't.

What I want to know is if any chimps have lived their life span, as pets, without having to be euthanized, killed during an attack (as Travis was) or sent to a sanctuary because it became unmanageable. Or for that matter raccoons, wolves or other exotics. And whether it could be safely allowed to mingle with other people or animals.


Yes I know of many chimps that live out their lives as pets w/o incident. I also saw someone state that 7-8 years old way still a managable age to control a chimp, well let me tell you from first hand experience that chimpanzees at that age especially a male do not belong out side of their cage. I had many large primates and know what I am talking about. Many chimps can be trusted with the family that raises them as well as with other animals. Primates are very terrritorial and bond with their famiy, and dont respond well to outsiders. I am friends with several familys tha raise and sell chimps, and when chimps are treated like chimps, with the respect that they deserve everything will be fine. In most cases.
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Postby JBG » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:14 am

HyzenthlayForesight wrote:I guess that depends on your definition of pets. Yes lots of people have kept their exotics their whole lives both big and small but some like Pat's bears don't live in the house and snuggle with you while some species might be able to like my anteater.
First, by what definition is an animal that Pat doesn't trust to "snuggle" with her a pet? I can see not having a 400 lb. bear living inside your house but if it's a pet one should be able to play with it, "pet" it, etc.
HyzenthlayForesight wrote:Unfortunately because of the current climate you wont find many primate owners willing to talk about it publicly.
Actually, if such cases weren't non-existant or rare one would hear a lot (maybe anonymously) about a "sweet" 33 year old chimp.
HyzenthlayForesight wrote:
Currently, there are over 700 pet chimpanzees in US homes of unknown origin


At present, there may be as many as 15,000 primate pets in the United States


Assuming those numbers are correct there are plenty that stay in their homes and don't kill or maim or it would be common instead of sensational news.
Unless the chimps are often successfully exiled, or euthanized quietly, when their behavior starts to become erratic.
HyzenthlayForesight wrote:While there have been a couple cases of captive chimps maiming people in recent years none have killed anyone, plenty of dogs have. The last one was in 2005. So in five years 2 attacks out of 700. Roughly one every two years.

Or another way to look at it 0.25% of pet chimps attack. Though the California chimp was at a sanctuary so not really a pet, whatever his origins might have been.

about 4 million dogs in the USA. 32 deaths a year by dog.
Every 40 seconds, someone in the United States seeks medical attention for a dog bite. There are approximately 800,000 bites per year in the United States


So percent of dogs that bite seriously 20%

Chimps aren't safer than dogs but more people are aware of the dangers and keep them responsibly and take more precautions.
The difference is that while some dogs do bite dogs in general seem comfortable and not agitated in someone's house, lap, etc.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:16 am

You joined this board to only post in this thread so seems you have an agenda here that is anti-exotic, which becomes more apparent as you stop asking questions and start making declarations. Not just anti-chimp or primate as you said earlier you didn't really believe any exotic lives a full life as a pet.

Pet is not defined as something you snuggle with. A pet horse doesn't sleep in bed with you. You can't hold and pet pet fish or frogs because it's not healthy for you to touch most frogs or take fish out of the water to hold and cuddle but they are all still considered pets.

The proper definition of pet according the Merriam Webster and other reputable dictionaries is simply "an animal kept for pleasure rather than utility"

She enjoys her bears, takes good care of them, and they are not useful financially, for work, or food or fiber. That makes them pets.

I can respect your definition of pet but it is not the universally excepted definition. Some people would never call something that poops on the floor a good pet but many fennec fox owners love theirs and happily just pick up after them. Or pet bird owners that allow free flight also cleaning up poo. Or heck even lots of chihuahua owners, lol.

Actually, if such cases weren't non-existant or rare one would hear a lot (maybe anonymously) about a "sweet" 33 year old chimp.

Not true. For example I know privately of several pet anteater owners but I'm likely the only one you will find because others are not willing to put them selves out there. There is also the fact most people, even exotic owners, do not get a pet for publicity and attention, but just want to have a pet that makes them happy.

Unless the chimps are often successfully exiled, or euthanized quietly, when their behavior starts to become erratic.

like the millions of dogs in shelter each year?

The difference is that while some dogs do bite dogs in general seem comfortable and not agitated in someone's house, lap, etc.


If you actually read posts here instead of just coming to make post about how exotics are bad then you would know most exotics are also comfortable with their homes and people. I mean we have plenty of fox and raccoon owners with animals that are happy in their homes or were happy in their homes their whole lives only to die of old age like Struner. Yet you "questioned" that any exotic pet, listing coons and foxes, had ever lived a full life as a pet.

Really I don't mean to be rude, though some members may argue the fact, lol, but at this point it looks like you joined and exotic board to argue exotics are bad but made a smoother than normal entrance by picking on chimps since some others also had questions due to it not being a type of exotic they themselves are familiar with.

If anything for the members here it just highlights why all exotic owners have to stick together instead of thinking it's okay to regulate or ban those other scary ones and letting them(AR) split us up and pic us off species by species.
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Postby JBG » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:25 am

HyzenthlayForesight wrote:Not true. For example I know privately of several pet anteater owners but I'm likely the only one you will find because others are not willing to put them selves out there. There is also the fact most people, even exotic owners, do not get a pet for publicity and attention, but just want to have a pet that makes them happy.

HyzenthlayForesight wrote:If you actually read posts here instead of just coming to make post about how exotics are bad then you would know most exotics are also comfortable with their homes and people. I mean we have plenty of fox and raccoon owners with animals that are happy in their homes or were happy in their homes their whole lives only to die of old age like Struner. Yet you "questioned" that any exotic pet, listing coons and foxes, had ever lived a full life as a pet.
Actually I am on this board to learn about which exotics actually do work out. As a child in the 1960's I was a devoted watcher of Disney's Wonderful World of Color (later renamed to Wonderful World of Disney when color sets became ubiquitous and most programming was in color). I remember being delighted watching pet otters frolick with their owners. I did not want to come away from the news with an anti-exotic bias and came to this Board to learn othewise.
HyzenthlayForesight wrote:Really I don't mean to be rude, though some members may argue the fact, lol, but at this point it looks like you joined and exotic board to argue exotics are bad but made a smoother than normal entrance by picking on chimps since some others also had questions due to it not being a type of exotic they themselves are familiar with.


I am hopting to learn of exotics, such as the raccoons and foxes that you mention, that are parts of families and do not live out their lives in cages. Thank you for letting me explain myself on this matter.

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Postby pat » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:42 am

everyone will have their own defination of the word "pet"

my opinion, just because an animal is not a "lap animal" or even strictly indoor, they are still pets to me.

my outdoor animals, loves attention, and likes to be petted and scratched. therefore, they are "my PETS"

But, on another note, if I have had animals that is unpredicatle and have shown agression for no reason, I can't classify them as a pet.
I could not trust them. actually, I was afraid of them.

I had "male rheas" and bull. to me, these guys were not pets.
needless to say, they are not with me anymore.

I think if when someone is considering a pet, it is wise to talk with many different owners. also to realize what a new owner is getting into.

I personally think, understanding the animal helps make a better "pet"
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Postby JBG » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:31 am

pat wrote:everyone will have their own defination of the word "pet"
my opinion, just because an animal is not a "lap animal" or even strictly indoor, they are still pets to me.

my outdoor animals, loves attention, and likes to be petted and scratched. therefore, they are "my PETS"

But, on another note, if I have had animals that is unpredicatle and have shown agression for no reason, I can't classify them as a pet.
I could not trust them. actually, I was afraid of them.
Agreed and I agree with yours.

Does your bear like being petted? Do you get into cage with him/her? Does he/she recognize you from other people?
pat wrote:I had "male rheas" and bull. to me, these guys were not pets.
needless to say, they are not with me anymore.
Exactly, and thanks for answer.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:28 pm

Thank you for explaining and I apologize for suspecting the worst but I have seen that happen. On one exotic board some of the main members actually came out in one discussion and admitted that didn't think any animals should be kept as pets(heavy AR). I mean none of us are going to AR boards and trying to convince them to eat meat and own exotics.

I do know one person with otters. They wouldn't be the first choice for a first time exotic owner as they can be bitey and destructive though if you are experienced you can teach them to not bite so hard when playing but you can't trust them with strangers. I got to see his otter visit and run around but touching him was off limits.

Smaller things often do good like hedgehogs, chinchillas and ferrets. Even though more common than somethings they are still exotics too.

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