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Brush Tailed Bettongs

Wallabies, kangaroos, Sugar Gliders, Possums, Quolls, etc.

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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun May 25, 2014 5:37 pm

Thank you Ash.

And thank you OtterPop for the help on making the petition. It would never have been as professional otherwise.

And Ash for acting as my editor.

It does seem likely that the commission would just go by whatever the experts of the panel suggest. It's pretty exciting. We'll have helped make a species legal. All this waiting is the hardest part aside from the work of actually writing the petition.

As to the feasibility and cost aspect allowing some odd things. My theory on it but was like, if you manage to jump through all the other hoops needed to get a pygmy hippo or red panda then we wont stand in your way but size on some of them makes sense too. An escaped rhino would be hard to miss.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:51 pm

The new Macropod Manual is in production and should be sent out next week. About $300 but is two volumes and I know is worth the money but it still feels weird to spend that much money on a book. It will be sooooo nice to have a health and veterinary guide and so take the mystery out of health care for a change. Eventually I'd like to get my vet a copy too but for now she can have my old one and I'll bring the new one to appointments with me.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Your requested to classify the Brush Tailed Bettong went to the Commission on September 5th. The results were that it was pulled by wildlife staff after the presentation and before the commission voted on the requested. The reason it was pulled was because I could not answer the following questions and Division believed that it would have been denied. So I need your help to answer these questions. These questions were generated by the IUCN listing.



1. How many USDA license breeders are there?

2. Where did the breeders get their breeding pairs?

3. Are there other sources than USDA License breeders to acquire an animal and if so what are they?

4. How many Bettong are imported into the USA and how did the importer get the animals?

5. How was the person requesting the classification; planning to get their animal?





If you can answer these questions I will run back through the division for next step.



Image

That's just some nit picky BSImage by the commission right there. I mean that's got all of nothing to do with whether or not they could be invasive in the state. Image

It'll take me some time to reply as I need permission from at least one of the breeders before mentioning them and I can try to see if I can get more history in the mean time but it's ancient history. They were CITES I listed in Jan of 1975 that's before I was born so there's been no imports since then unless some super special zoo trades happened.

This is what I wrote but not sent yet. Edit: [The below is revised from initial post after talking with the instate breeder./edit] This is just such an obvious stone walling tactic. Everything's perfect lets ask for some random pointless stuff that is impossible to answer. Ugh.
1. "How many USDA license breeders are there?"
Without applying to try and get that info from the USDA with a Freedom of Information Act request to be sure I can only guess. I know of only 5 breeders I could find.

2. Where did the breeders get their breeding pairs?
All the bettongs originated from The Kangaroo Conservancy which closed many years ago. The remaining bettongs are traded between the current breeders to try and limit inbreeding. Importation was stopped with a CITES1 listing about 40 years ago. So there is no available information on their importation.

3. Are there other sources than USDA License breeders to acquire an animal and if so what are they?
No one can legally sell a bettong in the USA unless USDA licensed and they can not be sold across state lines without a USDI license. Since they are CITES 1 listed as well as Endangered Species Act listed they can not be imported with out a CITES I permit which requires special circumstances. The importer would also need their USDI license to be allowed to import or transport the bettong across state lines. This essentially limits any potential imports to AZA zoos and the few breeders who meet the above requirements who are looking to trade for better blood lines but I know of no imports in decades.

4. How many Bettong are imported into the USA and how did the importer get the animals?
They were listed as CITES I in Jan of 1975 so I can not answer about who imported them since that was before I was born. No bettongs have been imported in decades due to the CITES I listing. Since all the bettongs in the USA originated from the one facility they are all related at this point and the numbers have severely declined. Curenlty breeders are cooperating to limit the effects of the small gene pool by carefully selecting breeders that are least related.

5. How was the person requesting the classification; planning to get their animal?
Bettong are also listed with the USF&W service on the endangered species list. Since Bettongs are Endangered Species Act listed they can not cross state lines except in trades between USDI licensed facilities. There is one breeder in state of Bettongs. They have their state prohibited species permit to have them and they do help in setting up a mentorship program through the USF&W so that acquisitioners can qualify for their USDI permit. I would acquire my bettong through this facility
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby Ash » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:14 am

That's so stupid. I can't believe they weren't floored by your petition, honestly. Like you said, the info they're wanting is just so they can heckle and exercise their power. That has nothing to do with anything on state level. It should be no concern to the department--that's all federal stuff that's been dealt with.

Man, I'm sorry that they're giving you such trouble. I mean, really...

Your answers to their questions are good though. I don't have much to add since you've covered everything pretty well. Maybe citing your "sources" or something. Like cite the endangered species act or whatnot to make it look more... "official?" Either way, your answers are already really nice and cohesive

I'm running into to some state issues as well, so I can feel your frustration... I'm about to go and apply for another COR for a prohibited species, but I've been speaking to some people and the predictable outcome looks like it won't be super good.

When will be the next time the board meets? I'm assuming that's when they'll bring it up next?
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:33 am

Thank you. Hopefully yours will go better than you expect but it seems things keep getting harder even without new laws being passed. This whole listing system and petitioning is supposed to only cover invasion risk but the board seems inclined to broaden what is supposed to be considered.

Ah I was going to add citations before sending it but then forgot. They should be familiar enough with things like CITES and the endangered species list to look it up but they don't seem to even know how USDA works by their questions. I could still send them so he can add them when he goes back to them with the info. The panel seems to know much more what they are supposed to and open to actually considering things.

Yeah I can't come up with any legit justification for the questions. To ensure they really are super rare so wont wind up a common household pet and risk escapes? Because the petition covered all aspects of the fact they wont survive so that really shouldn't matter. He said it was the IUCN designation as endangered that brought it up though, so trying to make sure the original stock was legal? As you say that would be federal business and not state.

Just got to give them what they ask for and hope it's enough. Weird that bit of info would be a sticky enough point to deny it for them. Seems they just don't want to allow anything new and are looking for excuses or hopefully as you said flexing their muscles and making it look like they are doing something as it's more likely they will eventually accept it.

They meet twice a year so it will likely be late Mach or early April but I don't know yet if it will need to wait for that as he seemed unsure himself and said he would let me know once he has the info and talks to them again. If they are just dragging their feet to look good then it likely will have to wait for the meeting.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby Ash » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:48 pm

I hope they don't wait until the board meeting. If they make you wait until then, then you're right about them "flexing their muscles." They just want to prove they're in control and make it seem like they too know what they're talking about.

I'm sure it doesn't matter too much about the sources. They should be well-versed in the terminology... CITES, IUCN, USDA, ESA... That's basic. If they don't know it, then they need to go do their homework.

I'm surprised they only have meetings twice yearly. That doesn't seem often enough, unless they have "sub meetings" in between those.

Do you think if you were there in person it could help?

Anyway, keep me updated. I have my fingers crossed that they will make the decision sooner.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:28 pm

I don't know. They may have had a bit less respect for the petition due to my not being there to answer questions, on the other hand I was able to answer them better this way by getting some info from the breeder first. As it is there is no way I could take a day to go to a meeting but by March who knows. I had heard from someone else they had set up or offered to set up for him to "be there" by phone. I never thought that would be needed though since the invasive species guy from the panel thought it would sail through. Not the best public speaker without a script though so not sure if I would help or hurt.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:22 pm

Well the board has declined to vote on or hear the issue any further since they have no legit reason to decline the petition so they will remain unclassified and so treated as prohibited. What a freakin' corrupt system. I had the perfect name picked out too. So now have to move them to the back burner till I can either move out of state or afford to jump through all the hoops they will want for me to get the prohibited animal permit.

:wall:
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby Ash » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:59 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Well the board has declined to vote on or hear the issue any further since they have no legit reason to decline the petition so they will remain unclassified and so treated as prohibited. What a freakin' corrupt system. I had the perfect name picked out too. So now have to move them to the back burner till I can either move out of state or afford to jump through all the hoops they will want for me to get the prohibited animal permit.

:wall:


That is so stupid. And very typical of any wildlife agency. I'm very sorry you can't get your bettong as soon as you hoped. :icon-frown: I know how frustrating that can be.

I honestly think you just intimidated them with your petition alone, to be honest. They probably have never had an "inexperienced/unqualified pet owner" come to them with such scientific research. Have you considered working for the DNR at all? I know you work from home, so maybe it wouldn't be feasible (might have to travel far) but seriously, you could do a LOT better than they could. I've considered working for the DNR, but I would need a degree in zoology/biology/etc or something like that, just so that I can seem more "legit" when presenting changes.

They really need to get off their high horses though. There was NO reason whatsoever for them to deny adding bettongs to the unrestricted list--like, at all. They just want to make it "clear" to the little people who is really in charge. I really share your frustration, and I am very frustrated they did not vote on it at ALL.

I know it is probably very disappointing... And having a name picked out in advance makes it harder--you think about it more, you plan for it more, you "budget" in advance for it. That really is low of them to not even vote on it. Not to mention the amount of time and research you put in to that paper! Can they not even have respect enough for that?
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:00 pm

I was just wondering how the board members are set in place if elected or just appointed or what cuz they need changed out. I mean they have things like hippos listed as uncontrolled but I can't have what is essentially a tiny wallaby when wallabies are allowed is just stupid.

Since they have term limits listed guess voted on. Looks like most are expiring this and next year. Of course then the thing is who could be better. I don't know if I could survive an election. We need some exotic friendly peeps in there or at least be a bit more open to the idea. Most of them don't even have animal backgrounds it looks like, a couple but the rest hunter, business man, teacher, fishery advocate. http://www.dfw.state.or.us/agency/commi ... embers.asp

Actually OtterPop petitioned to get an otter species listed first so helped pave the way for me but being otters are very adaptable they listed as prohibited. I didn't know when I started but when he found out I was trying it too he shared his petition with me which helped a lot for formatting to look professional.

The law was meant to be fair. Residents can petition for listings but since their own personal agendas are that people shouldn't have exotic pets since they couldn't reasonably vote for them to be prohibited in this case they just refuse to address the petition. Totally unethical.

If there was some legit reason it would be easier to take.

Since Rick from the invasive species office was much more reasonable about it then it might not be as frustrating to get the permit but I'm not ready to deal with all that now and shouldn't have been needed for this species. Probably still better than moving out of state, at least for bettongs, since unless I moved to a state with a breeder would then need to deal with USDI. Gonna have to wait either way.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby Ash » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:53 am

Well, in Utah we're getting our board members switched out (some are retiring) and I've heard positive things about the people who are replacing them. So at least here things might get more reasonable, and hopefully up there for you too.

Like I said, it's really just them flaunting their power. They're intimidated by it, and they don't have anything bad to say about it, so just... choose not to. People like that shouldn't be in office. If you don't have the confidence/knowledge/guts to vote on a subject you're supposed to be in charge of, you have no place in that chair.

It may be a long shot, but you may want to consider "running" if that's actually an option. Really, you'd be the best person in the whole department. If you're competing against teachers and hunters, it shouldn't be that hard. But we all know it's political, so that makes it hard for "common people" to get on these boards.

I was chided by the DWR here in Utah when I got my variance for Fable because I told them that some of the info provided by the committee about foxes was wrong. They were rude to me, and said I could always "take it up with the expert later" or something like that. I've gotten a lot bolder now though, so if that was said to me today I'd probably say something along the lines of, "No way, let's take it up NOW." But whatever. That's in the past. It was just so discouraging seeing how unhelpful they were and how demeaning they were, but I mean, really? What did I expect. That's how board members are these days.

I am so upset and frustrated by these sorts of things. I really wanted you to be able to get a bettong, because I know how important that was to you. And just because of the incompetence of a handful of people, you can't.

Your petition should have at least been voted on--regardless if they came up with some stupid reason not to pass it. Your petition was unbiased, scientific, and completely what it should have been. I really do feel like this was unjust for you. I don't know how bold you are, but maybe you could call and "demand" them to vote on it and give you a real answer. I know that usually gets a lot of people ticked off (so typically that's not a good thing), but sometimes being blunt is the best way to go. Or you could send the board members emails explaining how you feel about them not doing their job--about how you spent weeks writing that petition, that you at the very LEAST deserve an answer from them.
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Re: Brush Tailed Bettongs

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:48 pm

Assuming they don't get re-elected(If there aren't term limits to keep them from rerunning) then if I were to consider running at all it would make more sense for '16 since two would already be gone. Since most aren't really qualified anyway I assume for most things the rest just voted however the first two said to(forester service guy and biologist). They deal with a lot more than just exotics though, the forestry, fishing hunting and management rules which my knowledge isn't that deep on. But then most in there now don't either it looks like. For most of the less known offices like that you never hear from them accept their essay thing in the voter book so basically would just have to write a really good essay on why I'd be good unless someone else actually has enough money and drive to do some actual campaigning. But it's not too common to see that with the obscure offices actually rare to see them run opposed at all.

As far as the Bettongs I think pushing it now could backfire though if I showed up to comment at a meeting it might push them to go forward they may just make them prohibited even though they have no reason. If I wait a couple years then 5 of the 6 will be gone. In which case I would probably still do best to go to a meeting to comment but could approach it from the angle of the past board dropped it but that I'm legally entitled to have this voted on as that's the point of the law and that once they look at the petition they should see there is no reason not to allow them as there is no invasion risk. I don't want to go calling the old board corrupt but want to point towards that to make them feel like this is a chance for them to stand out from the old board and do the right thing. And maybe by then could even get the permit if it fails but on principle I still want to try and get it passed. sucks to wait but think there's a better chance of positive results if I wait for a new board instead of fighting the current one. If there is a new one. I'll need to look into if there are term limits or if they can run again when term is up. The current board obviously sucks though so need new people somehow.

Edit: oops should have just looked at their cover page "The Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission consists of seven members appointed by the governor for staggered four-year terms. One commissioner must be from each congressional district, one from east of the Cascades and one from the west of the Cascades." That sounds harder. Need to convince the governor to hire me basically, eek. I would hope how that reads though is they just serve 4 years and gone but I guess he could reappoint them which would suck. It's not clear to me.

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