Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

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Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:20 pm

I just want insights on how you would have this done. I've been researching and planning for a few years now. Just the more time passed the more my excitement magnified. It never hurts to get other people's savoir-faire & partake any gems their experience may offer.

Willing to get a 2 bedroom (I live alone) to accommodate for all the space needed. I don't clog my house with furniture or junk & keep quite the fengshui everywhere I am so it will be spacious and proofed (easily as its an apartment, pet friendly). I don't spend time with people in general and most of my time is spent at home for the majority of my careers & work; So I will have plenty of freedom to socialize & tend to them.

Will getting the Fennec fox 9~10 months ahead of the Red fox & Alaskan Klee Kai reduce or nullify completely any future dominance from the other two bigger canids, including any violent play?

Wouldn't it be wise to synchronize their births to increase familiarity from the get go?

I've seen a lot of people living with multiple dogs and foxes in the same home, fennec with a klee kai and collie. A fennec with an arctic, wolfdog & collie. A red with a brown fox and a labrador. An Aardwolf with a dog, plenty of combinations that I'm glad to see working fine. Even with cats.
So what would you suggest as "don't forget" tips should I want 4 animals in the same indoor home with a very natural/outdoor atmosphere?
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:41 pm

I wouldn't suggest a red fox in an apartment at all, due to they don't fully litter train, are destructive and can be loud... not to mention they smell. I have 4 and a raccoon and the foxes are mainly outdoors in an enclosure except for when I'm there to supervise.a friend of mine owns a red and a fennec and they can't be around each other, the fennec wants to attack the red. I wouldn't personally ever trust a red fox with any smaller animal either die to their high prey drive. It only takes a second for one to grab a smaller animal and kill it. Not trying to be a downer. The fennec and klee klai(spelling?) May work, but idk.i wouldn't allow any of them unsupervised time together and definitely wouldn't have a red fox around smaller animals, or in an apartment for that matter
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:52 pm

linseylou wrote:I wouldn't suggest a red fox in an apartment at all, due to they don't fully litter train, are destructive and can be loud... not to mention they smell. I have 4 and a raccoon and the foxes are mainly outdoors in an enclosure except for when I'm there to supervise.a friend of mine owns a red and a fennec and they can't be around each other, the fennec wants to attack the red. I wouldn't personally ever trust a red fox with any smaller animal either die to their high prey drive. It only takes a second for one to grab a smaller animal and kill it. Not trying to be a downer. The fennec and klee klai(spelling?) May work, but idk.i wouldn't allow any of them unsupervised time together and definitely wouldn't have a red fox around smaller animals, or in an apartment for that matter


I've seen a lot of red foxes on instagram and youtube being kept without outdoor enclosure. They aren't Siberian domesticated foxes either as that would be EVEN easier. I'm keen on living in apartment due to how easily kept it can be (repairs, bills, etc.) and I get to save for my house which will require time. Money is of no object which is why I wanted a 2 bedroom as I am completely determined to have these creatures in my life. I've messaged the original creators of the videos I'm referring to but thought I'd get more takes on here in the meantime as they still haven't replied yet.

I also really can't help but notice the slight distinction of size between various foxes. I've seen fluffy reds, skinny reds, big reds, small reds, scruffy reds. If you have any information regarding parental genes and foreseeable size I'd love to know. As a smaller quirky red fox would definitely make things smoother especially if I can trace it to the parents if the breeder is truthful as I'd expect them to be reputable.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:06 pm

If you're talking about Scout and Luna the fennec and wold dog do not have contact because she will try to kill him.

The "brown" fox is likely a morph of red fox.

It's not advised to mix reds and fennecs. It's not really advised to mix any for the fox species though sometimes people have reds and arctics get along but they are also likely to fight and the red kill the arctic. All the foxes have differing natural "languages" and behaviors. Even being similar size Ellina's fennecs and Corsacs don't get along. None of her fox species get along and have to stay separated.

Fennecs are tiny, fast and darty and squeaky things that will trigger hunting instinct in a red. Fennecs can be grumpy and have turned on animals they have been raised with, cats and dogs included but they are more likely to get along with cats.

My fennec loves by dog but my dog is noise phobic so was terrified of him, he still doesn't like him but isn't as scared but still ius scared of him at times. Fennec loves my anteaters too, who also don't like him.

M<y fennec is scared of the cat though because the cat didn't come in the room for the first couple weeks. Their imprinting period is pretty short got him at 8 weeks so if they don't meet before 1012 weeks they might not accept the new species..

Honestly would never have a red and fennec in the same space together, except maybe the red as a tiny kit but even raised with the fennec would not trust them together as adults.

Fennecs and small dogs usually get along. But even some small dog breeds can be preditory and snappy. It doesn't take much to severely harm a fennec. You would have the best chance if you got them both as babies at the same time and raised together. That may be hard to make happen though with a Klee Kai since you will be on a list for them for awhile like you will be a fennec.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:24 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:If you're talking about Scout and Luna the fennec and wold dog do not have contact because she will try to kill him.

The "brown" fox is likely a morph of red fox.

It's not advised to mix reds and fennecs. It's not really advised to mix any for the fox species though sometimes people have reds and arctics get along but they are also likely to fight and the red kill the arctic. All the foxes have differing natural "languages" and behaviors. Even being similar size Ellina's fennecs and Corsacs don't get along. None of her fox species get along and have to stay separated.

Fennecs are tiny, fast and darty and squeaky things that will trigger hunting instinct in a red. Fennecs can be grumpy and have turned on animals they have been raised with, cats and dogs included but they are more likely to get along with cats.

My fennec loves by dog but my dog is noise phobic so was terrified of him, he still doesn't like him but isn't as scared but still ius scared of him at times. Fennec loves my anteaters too, who also don't like him.

M<y fennec is scared of the cat though because the cat didn't come in the room for the first couple weeks. Their imprinting period is pretty short got him at 8 weeks so if they don't meet before 1012 weeks they might not accept the new species..

Honestly would never have a red and fennec in the same space together, except maybe the red as a tiny kit but even raised with the fennec would not trust them together as adults.

Fennecs and small dogs usually get along. But even some small dog breeds can be preditory and snappy. It doesn't take much to severely harm a fennec. You would have the best chance if you got them both as babies at the same time and raised together. That may be hard to make happen though with a Klee Kai since you will be on a list for them for awhile like you will be a fennec.


No Dro isn't who I'm referring to I'm aware of those two's relationship between each other lol. It was other videos on insta and lesser known video site.
And yes I was referring to the brown fox as a red fox just made the color clear so you'd know I'm talking about MyFoxyFamily on IG.

I appreciate your two cents. How would you say they would fare if extra time was spent on training them? Even rewarding good play behaviour & reprimanding rough incidences instead of just separating & timing them out to routinely shape the subconscious desired. I am also very willing to have the Fennec be up to 2 years old (max?) before introducing the others. I did plan on having them all born at the same time but if the Fennec getting a head start can help in the slightest, I'd do it. I'm also doing my best to get jovial, playful & calmer offsprings by diligently logging every breeder information and their summaries of the parents. The more home acclimated their family tree the better.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:59 pm

Im not saying it's not doable to own a red indoors, but not ideal most of the time and allot of people that post on ig(even juniper) have enclosures too. Inside you will need to tear up all carpet, replace couches and walls frequently, and be ok with your house smelling VERY foxy, no matter how much you clean. Loki's owner is even against indoor living for the most part and he's indoors. I love mine to come in, but after awhile they want back out even though I can handle the destruction and smell. My raccoon destroys things so it's normal for me to have to replace things lol. In an apartment you'll have neighbors that could complain about smell and noise is a big concern I would have, my neighbors are far away and family and they can hear the foxes playing or fussing at something outside from inside their house. they can also smell them even though i clean every day. My friend who owns both lives in an apartment, but her red is a Russian and she's there ALLOT with him. Hess still messy and still tears stuff up though.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:12 pm

I will say my fire and ice red female evienne is small compared to allot of reds and the siblings ive seen of hers are too along with her dad. She weighs about 6-8lbs in the summer and 12-15 in the winter and she's petite.i am 4foxes_and_a_trashpanda on ig if you want to look at her,I can't get photos to cooperate with me on here lol
You are forever responsible for what you've tamed, responsible pet ownership starts with you.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:28 pm

linseylou wrote:Im not saying it's not doable to own a red indoors, but not ideal most of the time and allot of people that post on ig(even juniper) have enclosures too. Inside you will need to tear up all carpet, replace couches and walls frequently, and be ok with your house smelling VERY foxy, no matter how much you clean. Loki's owner is even against indoor living for the most part and he's indoors. I love mine to come in, but after awhile they want back out even though I can handle the destruction and smell. My raccoon destroys things so it's normal for me to have to replace things lol. In an apartment you'll have neighbors that could complain about smell and noise is a big concern I would have, my neighbors are far away and family and they can hear the foxes playing or fussing at something outside from inside their house. they can also smell them even though i clean every day. My friend who owns both lives in an apartment, but her red is a Russian and she's there ALLOT with him. Hess still messy and still tears stuff up though.

linseylou wrote:I will say my fire and ice red female evienne is small compared to allot of reds and the siblings ive seen of hers are too along with her dad. She weighs about 6-8lbs in the summer and 12-15 in the winter and she's petite.i am 4foxes_and_a_trashpanda on ig if you want to look at her,I can't get photos to cooperate with me on here lol


I could take them out often. I guess it depends on their personality, hopefully I get homebodies with soft natures. I'm fine with my place having odours as I will have a lot of plants hanging everywhere to filter the air on top of my filtration system on my A/C, plus all the incense I burn, that with cleaning, it won't be an issue. I only live with hard floors as carpets are annoying as hell. The couches will be hard leather for those reasons too.
It's for all this online content that I feel paying 7000$ for a Russian breed isn't necessary. But I will be spending a lot of time with them so maybe they'll be more docile as I'd bring them with me nearly everywhere I went and in constant training mode.

I'll definitely check your page out lol forums have a tendency to do that. :P
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 pm

amine9876 wrote:I appreciate your two cents. How would you say they would fare if extra time was spent on training them? Even rewarding good play behaviour & reprimanding rough incidences instead of just separating & timing them out to routinely shape the subconscious desired. I am also very willing to have the Fennec be up to 2 years old (max?) before introducing the others. I did plan on having them all born at the same time but if the Fennec getting a head start can help in the slightest, I'd do it. I'm also doing my best to get jovial, playful & calmer offsprings by diligently logging every breeder information and their summaries of the parents. The more home acclimated their family tree the better.


I wouldn't use punishment too easy for them to associate the bad with the other animal and not their own actions. Also it's a tricky slope since if you punish an animal for growling you're just taking their warning system away. A growl from my dog helps the fennec know to keep back. Out right aggression maybe. I had some jealousy type aggression against my anteaters from my past dogs. They were pulled off told no sternly and crated and it worked on them pretty quick. Foxes however are not as respectful of what you want, so even if a red fox knows you don't like them doing something and that it could cause punishment for them it wont stop them doing it. Positive reward based training works better.

I've seen a couple cases where a fennec was placed with a red briefly, never went well. In once case the red was scared of the fennec since the red was the young one and the fennec was trying to attack him. Everyone survived it but a red could end a fennec quickly. It's really hard for different species of foxes to get along because they don't understand each other.

---

A lot of people people aren't posting the negatives they live with when having them inside and most wont keep them inside beyond the first year though a very small number do. Some bring them inside for photos and videos then put them back out. Bunch of house fox owners in a group were just comparing damage notes just the other day, ripped up floors, chewed dry wall and wood, huge holes in furniture. And yes they do still mark and pee on things. Most red and arctics also become more aggressive when kept indoors exclusively. These sorts of things top the list for why so many foxes are rehomed every year.

Even my fennec still pees on things(but they do not smell as strong or bad as reds) and he did dig up a tile off the floor already. And yes he screams. I would never get one in an apartment.

Here's a big issue with an apartment. First you'll need written permission from the owner for the species but even with that they can kick you out at any time due to damage, smell or noise complaints.

I don't think anyone should get res or arctics without having an outside enclosure ready. If yours did turn out to be one of the rare few that do okay inside, great you didn't need it but if your's does become aggressive and attacks you for going near it's room and over food etc, like has happened, what will you do then being in an apartment? Just hoping this wont happen to you is not proper planning and again is how so many wind up rehomed, escaped, and even dead each year.

The more work of having a house might suck but having the fox is going to be tons of work anyway.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby Lara » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:12 pm

Okay, I just want to say it is unlikely that you will end up with a calm homebody fox. They may calm down when they are older, but as a species reds are usually high energy and excited. They are also extremely loud during breeding season, so it would be difficult to have them in an apartment. Also, in my experience foxes love leather, and will be eager to shred it.

Have you met a fox before? If not, that might be a good idea, just to get a feel for the smell and energy level.

Spending time with a red can help them calm down, but it doesn't guarantee it. It also can be a bit dangerous to bring them with you all the time, because of the consequences of a fox bite. Even the most well trained foxes slip up and nip sometimes, especially if when people aren't giving them their personal space.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:31 pm

My foxes can rip through leather furniture, if you message me on ig ill send pictures of some of the destruction they've done. I walk mine often and spend plenty of time playing with them(several hrs daily and all day on days I don't work), that's just how they are. And mine are a bit lazy compared to foxes I've seen.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:42 pm

Lara wrote:Okay, I just want to say it is unlikely that you will end up with a calm homebody fox. They may calm down when they are older, but as a species reds are usually high energy and excited. They are also extremely loud during breeding season, so it would be difficult to have them in an apartment. Also, in my experience foxes love leather, and will be eager to shred it.

Have you met a fox before? If not, that might be a good idea, just to get a feel for the smell and energy level.

Spending time with a red can help them calm down, but it doesn't guarantee it. It also can be a bit dangerous to bring them with you all the time, because of the consequences of a fox bite. Even the most well trained foxes slip up and nip sometimes, especially if when people aren't giving them their personal space.


When I said bring them with me everywhere I meant on walks, runs and hikes. I don't hang with people much. It's also their very energy that makes me absolutely need one of my own. The loudness was never a problem for me, not in real life or in videos. It may sound crazy but I find all their noises captivating and entertaining. Not to mention that I've lived in apartments with my siblings and they were WAY noisier than any captive animal I've seen to date. We also never got complaints lol.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby Ash » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:44 pm

I would NEVER allow a fennec and a red to play together except if the red fox was a kit. Even if raised together, even if trained, I would never EVER trust a red not to kill something so quick and squeaky. They're highly instinctive animals, and movement can set them off. Heck, even reds don't always get along even if you think they acclimated well. I just had to separate one of my reds from the group due to injuries... They weren't raised together, but they got along fine for several months, so I thought nothing would go wrong.

You don't see the downsides on ig or facebook a lot. And when you do, they're played down, like, "Look, I've got a hole in my wall now, lol." That's really not funny or possible when you live in an apartment.

A red will not do well in an apartment. A fennec won't work in an apartment because you have neighbors and a landlord who wants his tenants to be happy.

I really think in your current situation a Klee Kai would be best for now. Save the foxes for when you have a house. It may seem hard to wait, but mixing the species when young will not guarantee that they will not kill each other. So if I were you, I'd get the puppy and enjoy it and wait until you got a house for the foxes. :)
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby Ash » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:52 pm

Also, I'm not trying to discourage you from owning these animals. I think you would absolutely love and adore them, and take great care of them. It is just not feasible in your situation to own them all right now. Holding off will definitely be best for the foxes, and waiting to have a perfect setup is very rewarding.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:56 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:I wouldn't use punishment too easy for them to associate the bad with the other animal and not their own actions. Also it's a tricky slope since if you punish an animal for growling you're just taking their warning system away. A growl from my dog helps the fennec know to keep back. Out right aggression maybe. I had some jealousy type aggression against my anteaters from my past dogs. They were pulled off told no sternly and crated and it worked on them pretty quick. Foxes however are not as respectful of what you want, so even if a red fox knows you don't like them doing something and that it could cause punishment for them it wont stop them doing it. Positive reward based training works better.

I've seen a couple cases where a fennec was placed with a red briefly, never went well. In once case the red was scared of the fennec since the red was the young one and the fennec was trying to attack him. Everyone survived it but a red could end a fennec quickly. It's really hard for different species of foxes to get along because they don't understand each other.

A lot of people people aren't posting the negatives they live with when having them inside and most wont keep them inside beyond the first year though a very small number do. Some bring them inside for photos and videos then put them back out. Bunch of house fox owners in a group were just comparing damage notes just the other day, ripped up floors, chewed dry wall and wood, huge holes in furniture. And yes they do still mark and pee on things. Most red and arctics also become more aggressive when kept indoors exclusively. These sorts of things top the list for why so many foxes are rehomed every year.

Even my fennec still pees on things(but they do not smell as strong or bad as reds) and he did dig up a tile off the floor already. And yes he screams. I would never get one in an apartment.

Here's a big issue with an apartment. First you'll need written permission from the owner for the species but even with that they can kick you out at any time due to damage, smell or noise complaints.

I don't think anyone should get res or arctics without having an outside enclosure ready. If yours did turn out to be one of the rare few that do okay inside, great you didn't need it but if your's does become aggressive and attacks you for going near it's room and over food etc, like has happened, what will you do then being in an apartment? Just hoping this wont happen to you is not proper planning and again is how so many wind up rehomed, escaped, and even dead each year.

The more work of having a house might suck but having the fox is going to be tons of work anyway.


I wouldn't consider growling too worrying. Just aggressive physical contact. I'd also obviously favour rewarding good behaviour. Just for the occasional mishap. Were the fennecs and reds you saw being incompatible raised together from birth?

Since they only get harder with age perhaps moving into a house after the first 5 years could be do-able. Or at least put a down payment on one and go from there.

As for permissions. Everything will be in Montreal which is known for its tolerable animal laws. Most apartment buildings and condos are all pet friendly. It's actually harder to find buildings that aren't. I'm also a very patient person when it comes to animals. Also all the furniture I'm picking and lifestyle I'm choosing to live are all in tune with their temperament and requirements.

Has anyone tried using repelling odours like citrus or spicy scents on surfaces they don't want destroyed? Dog owners do it for their troublesome pets.

Also I can't help but mention I'll be favouring my fennec through no fault of my own as I'm putting together a special carry-on with a mobile leash hook À la Pikachu so that could reinforce safe haven with me within the house if he ever sought playful refuge from the red. He'll mostly be with me so I'd be supervising him more than the others.

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