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Chastek's Paralysis

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Alynn
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Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Alynn » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:55 pm

So this is something I came across in some fur farming literature that I keep forgetting I found but I'd figured I'd share.

http://usfoxshipperscouncil.org/201204c ... deficiency

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 9-0034.pdf

Basically, it's unsafe to feed fish that contain thiaminase to foxes - especially raw and especially if it makes up more than 1/10th of the diet. The thiaminase causes a vitamin B deficiency to set in that causes still muscles, loss of coordination, weight loss, lethargy, etc. until death sets in. It can take a couple of months to happen once you start feeding fish with thiaminase and they can generally only be saved with high doses of vitamin B.
According to this: http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/20 ... minase.php
These are the following fish that contain thiaminase that are unsafe to feed to a fox (or mink) raw, and it's encouraged by the US Fox Shipper Council not to feed even if it's cooked. Bolded more frequently seen fish.
Alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus)
Anchovy, Broad-striped (Anchoa hepsetus)
Anchovy, Californian (Engraulis mordax)
Anchovy, Goldspotted Grenadier (Coilia dussumieri)

Barb, Olive (Puntius sarana)
Bass, White (Morone chrysops)
Bonefish (Albula vulpes)
Bowfin (Amia calva)
Bream (Abramis brama)
Buffalo, Bigmouth (Ictiobus cyprinellus)
Burbot (Lota lota)
Butterfish, American (Peprilus triacanthus)
Carp, Common (Cyprinus carpio)
Catfish, Black Bullhead (Amieurus melas)
Catfish, Brown Bullhead (Ameiurus nebulosus)
Catfish, Channel (Ictalurus punctatus)
Cod, Black (species undetermined)

Dolphinfish, Common (Coryphaena hippurus)
Flagtail, Hawaiian (Kuhlia sandvicensis)
Goatfish, Manybar (Parupeneus multifasciatus)
Goatfish, Red Sea (Mulloidichthys auriflamma)
Goatfish, Yellowstripe (Mulloidichthys samoensis)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Herring, Atlantic (Clupea harrengus)
Jobfish, Crimson (Pristipomoides filamentosus)
Jobfish, Green (Aprion virescens)
Lamprey, Sea (Petromyzon marinus)
Loach, Weatherfish (Misgurnus)
Mackerel, Chub (Scomber japonicus)
Menhaden, Atlantic (Brevoortia tyrannus)
Menhaden, Gulf (Brevoortia patronus)
Milkfish (Chanos chanos)
Minnow, Fathead (“Rosy Red”) (Pimephales promelas)
Moray Eel, Southern Ocellated (Gymnothorax ocellatus)
Mullet, Flathead Mugil cephalus)
Parrot, Regal (Scarus dubius)
Queenfish, Doublespotted (Scomberoides lysan)
Sardine, Razorbelly (Harengula jaguana)
Sauger (Harengula jaguana)
Scad, Bigeye (Selar crumenophthalmus)
Sculpin, Fourhorn (Triglopsis quadricornis)
Shad, Gizzard (Dorosoma cepedianum)
Shiner, Emerald (Notropis atherinoides)
Shiner, Spottail (Notropis hudsonius)
Smelt, Rainbow (Osmerus mordax)
Snapper, Ruby (Etelis carbunculus)

Stoneroller, Central (Campostoma anomalum)
Sucker, White (Catostomus commersonii)
Swordfish (Xiphias gladius)
Threadfin, Sixfinger (Polydactylus sexfilis)
Trevally, Giant (Caranx ignobilis)
Tuna, Skipjack (Katsuwonus pelamis)
Tuna, Yellowfin (Neothunnus macropterus)

Whitefish, Lake (Coregonus clupeaformis)
Whitefish, Round (Prosopium cylindraceum)
A number of clams, mussels, shrimp and other aquatic invertebrates have also been reported to contain thiaminase.


Meanwhile, these are safe to feed:
The following fish have been reported safe — or at least, free from thiaminase:

Amberjack, Greater (Seriola dumerilii)
Ayu (Plecoglossus altivelis)
Barracuda, Great (Sphyraena barracuda)
Bass, Largemouth (Micropterus salmoides)
Bass, Northern Rock (Ambloplites rupestris)
Bass, Northern Smallmouth (Micropterus dolomieu)
Bloater (Coregonus hoyi)
Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus)
Cisco / Lake Herring (Coregonus artedi)
Cod, Atlantic (Gadus morhua)
Crappie, Black (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
Croaker, Atlantic (Micropogonias undulates)
Croaker, Spot (Leiostomus xanthurus)
Cunner (Tautogolabrus adspersus
Dogfish, Piked (Squalus acanthias)
Eel, American (Anguilla rostrata)
Eel, Common (Anguilla anguilla)
Flounder, Winter / Lemon Sole (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
Flounder, Yellowtail (Limanda ferruginea)

Gar, Longnose (Lepisosteus osseus)
Glasseye (Heteropriacanthus cruentatus)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hairtail, Largehead (Trichiurus lepturus)
Hake (Urophycis)
Hake, Silver (Merluccius bilinearis)
Halibut, Atlantic (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Kawakawa (Euthynnus affinis)
Kingfish, Southern (Menticirrhus americanus)
Lizardfish, Inshore (Synodus foetens)
Mackerel, Atlantic (Scomber scombrus)
Marlin, Atlantic Blue (Makaira nigricans)
Mullet (Mugil)
Perch, European (Perca fluviatilis)
Perch, Ocean / Redfish (Sebastes marinus)
Perch, Yellow (Perca flavescens)
Pike, Northern (Esox lucius)
Plaice, American (Hippoglossoides platessoides)
Plaice, European (Pleuronectes platessa)
Pollock / Saithe (Pollachius)
Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus)
Salmon, Atlantic (Salmo salar)
Salmon, Coho (Oncorhynchus kisutch)

Scad, Mackerel (Decapterus pinnulatus)
Scad, Yellowtail (Atule mate)
Scup / Southern Porgy (Stenotomus chrysops)
Sea Catfish, Hardhead (Ariopsis felis)
Seabass, Black (Centropristis striata)
Searobin (Prionotus)
Seatrout, Sand (Cynoscion arenarius)
Seatrout, Silver (Cynoscion nothus)
Skate (Raja)
Smelt, Pond (Hypomesus olidus)
Soldierfish, Blotcheye (Myripristis berndti)
Sole, Common/Black (Solea solea)
Sprat, European (Sprattus sprattus)
Surgeonfish, Eyestripe (Acanthurus dussumieri)
Tautog / Blackfish (Tautoga onitis)
Tilapia (various species)
Trout, Brown (Salmo trutta)
Trout, Lake (Salvelinus namaycush)
Trout, Rainbow (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Trout, Sea (Salmo trutta)

Tusk (Brosme brosme)
Walleye (Sander vitreus)
Weakfish, Sand (Cynoscion arenarius)


Figured I'd share. I had never heard of it before other than stumbling across it by accident poking through fur farming literature. There's a lot that pet owners can learn from fur farms.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Ash » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:16 pm

Interesting. :) Thank-you for sharing that! I'll bet Ragtatter would love to see it.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby vampyra142001 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:26 am

A lot of people give goldfish as enrichment treats, myself included, so it sucks to know that they aren't healthy for foxes. As a treat, I know that it's only a tiny amount of thiaminase that they'd be getting, but finding a safer treat sounds like a good idea.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Alynn » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:10 pm

Ha, I didn't even notice that on the list. As an occasional treat it should be fine I would imagine, it's only when it starts to account for a decent chunk of the diet does it become a real concern.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Elina » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:03 pm

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing.

I don't think that many people do the gold fish thing because other then being bad for foxes they are just fat basically. Well at least that was how it was back when that youtube video 1st came out. I like everything my foxes eat to be of value to them nutritionally.

Glad to see Atlantic Mackerel on the good list. I currently have a freezer FULL of those. The joys of ordering raw pet food in bulk. They STINK when they defrost but are the only smelly thing my foxes eat and actually go CRAZY for.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Ragtatter » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:50 pm

Yes, I came across this in my research. :) The pink salmon used in Gizmo's diet ( O. gorbuscha ) is not on either list, but it is a close relative of one of the "safe" fish, Coho salmon.

I'm actually in the middle of reformulating Gizmo's diet. The data I used for energy uptake when I was originally making it was based on how humans derive energy from fat/protein/carbohydrates, because that's the data I had on hand.

While no research has specifically been done on how foxes convert these compounds into energy, the new diet I'm working on uses the values from mink instead of humans, which should be a much closer match.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Mystic » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:08 pm

Thanks for sharing this invaluable diet information. I knew to be mindful of mercury containing fish but was unaware of the dangers of thiaminase.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Ash » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:07 pm

Fable gets tilapia every now and again. He loves it. :)
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Elina » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:55 pm

Rags you will have to let me know when you change the diet so I can try mine on that. Currently mine eat what I make them from your recipes and a raw/barf dog diet I also make from scratch for the dogs. They also get lamb ribs/rabbits/pheasant/turkey legs/chicken wings or a whole fish every day mostly as play things.

Does Fable eat the head 1st Ash? Callie always eats the head 1st. I think it must be the best with it being crunchy.
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby BlueBaby1023 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:01 pm

Glad to see that tilapia is on the safe list. Nathan was planning on working on some aquaculture experiments in the next year or so, and it's one of the only fish I eat (I hate "fishy" flavors), so he was hoping that they would be safe to give to the dogs and foxes.

Ragtatter, I'd definitely be interested in your formulation like Elina. While I won't have reds this year (or I don't think so, anyways we're still up in the air due to how the house buying goes), I'd still like to have a good recipe ready. Which mink data are you using, if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby Ragtatter » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:05 pm

Hey Elina, it hasn't been tested yet, but I just posted the preliminary formulation for it:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12250

BlueBaby, the mink data is from the National Research Council. :)
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Re: Chastek's Paralysis

Postby dragonking » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:54 pm

Since this is the thing to look for, if I'm checking nutritional facts of something, what should I looking for that says whether or not something has thiaminase in it? Should I look for the thiamin amount since that is what gets broken down by the thiaminase?

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