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Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Red, Silver, Marble,Fennec, grey, corsac, Artic Etc.

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linseylou
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:11 pm

I've tried lots of different deterring sprays and such to no avail. And my friend who owns both a fennec and a Russian red would even say that having a fennec bear a full grown red is asking for trouble. My babies can jump onto my head in seconds and would grab and kill anything as small as a fennec in a mere minute if they chose to. There would be no saving the 2lb fennec from even my 6-8lb red.
You are forever responsible for what you've tamed, responsible pet ownership starts with you.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:24 pm

linseylou wrote:I've tried lots of different deterring sprays and such to no avail. And my friend who owns both a fennec and a Russian red would even say that having a fennec bear a full grown red is asking for trouble. My babies can jump onto my head in seconds and would grab and kill anything as small as a fennec in a mere minute if they chose to. There would be no saving the 2lb fennec from even my 6-8lb red.


Supervision will definitely be a given for the Fennec. I'll do what I can to get the smallest Red lineage I can find as it seems to be the most important factor here. I can see the size difference clear as day for most specimens so I keep hoping I'll find an average 25cm Fennec & 40cm Red to ease the size difference.

By the way when 'you' say never have both of them together, are you implying strictly no contact if they were yours? Or just never any unsupervised contact but can still roam the house while keeping an eye mainly on the small one?
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:35 pm

If I was to own both, they wouldn't be allowed to roam the house at the same time together. My friend who owns both would give you the same advice. Any of my foxes would grab a fennec up, even just playing with it and kill it pretty quickly. way before I could do anything, even if I was only a ft away. Red foxes are fast, and fennecs think they're bigger than they are. I have a large house cat and when my foxes mess with him I have to stop them because they love to tackle and bite his neck, not meaning him harm, but it still hurts him and he's 18lbs of muscle
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 am

Ash wrote:I would NEVER allow a fennec and a red to play together except if the red fox was a kit. Even if raised together, even if trained, I would never EVER trust a red not to kill something so quick and squeaky. They're highly instinctive animals, and movement can set them off. Heck, even reds don't always get along even if you think they acclimated well. I just had to separate one of my reds from the group due to injuries... They weren't raised together, but they got along fine for several months, so I thought nothing would go wrong.

You don't see the downsides on ig or facebook a lot. And when you do, they're played down, like, "Look, I've got a hole in my wall now, lol." That's really not funny or possible when you live in an apartment.

A red will not do well in an apartment. A fennec won't work in an apartment because you have neighbors and a landlord who wants his tenants to be happy.

I really think in your current situation a Klee Kai would be best for now. Save the foxes for when you have a house. It may seem hard to wait, but mixing the species when young will not guarantee that they will not kill each other. So if I were you, I'd get the puppy and enjoy it and wait until you got a house for the foxes. :)


After reviewing my mass collection of videos on two screens and comparing size differences of most in relation to the furniture and owner, I'm convinced the size difference between a red and fennec is subjective. A full size adult fennec next to some reds seem to be only a few cm apart in volume. I'll take time on the red selection to make sure I get the most favourable pick. I'm still about 2 to 2.5 years away from securing my lifestyle, career and personal expenses to have every aspect of my schedule & finances covered. I just need to position myself to have high chances of ending up with a probably 33 to 40 cm Red. Next to a 25 to 28 cm Fennec the size difference isn't as frightening.

I was also thinking of making the balcony a safe enclosure for fresh air, I'd have a sturdy screen installed as I would grow berries in the hot seasons on the ceiling of the balcony. It would definitely be somewhat spacious to curve some of the frustration down, especially if the material is see-through.

The noise isn't an issue as I not only state my occupation as musician but I find every one of Red and Fennec foxes' cries to be not only very tolerable for what you'd expect but even enjoyable (or is that just me lmao). Most if not all apartment complexes and condo buildings here are pet friendly and you can legally own up to 4 simultaneous animals in Montreal, not to mention that no fox specie is banned.

So far my refined aims are:

-Get the 2 bedroom for sure
-Get the Fennec 2 years ahead of the others
-Reward intensively good play behaviour
-Supervise & reprimand violence early on & often
-Socialise as much as possible equally outdoors as indoors
-Apply every bit of information acquired on training impeccably
-Get the smallest breed obtainable via parent sizes
-Move to a house within 5 years of the Red being born
-Keep the Fennec close to me even more than planned
-(Turn the balcony into a fool proof safe space, only after careful review & planning)
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:51 am

No one is breeding fennecs in Canada any longer and they can not be imported into the country for pets.

Having a fox in an apartment will still require specific permission for the species. You can't just sneak it in and think you'll get away with it because pets are allowed. It's not a normal pet and they can kick you out for it not being a reasonable pet, like trying to have a goat or cow. If you get written permission for the species then they can only kick you out for problems it causes down the line but a red is pretty much guaranteed to cause problems. But not only can they kick you out they can charge you for the damage that goes over the deposit.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:56 am

Not subjective. Fennecs are much smaller than reds.

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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:29 am

TamanduaGirl wrote:No one is breeding fennecs in Canada any longer and they can not be imported into the country for pets.

Having a fox in an apartment will still require specific permission for the species. You can't just sneak it in and think you'll get away with it because pets are allowed. It's not a normal pet and they can kick you out for it not being a reasonable pet, like trying to have a goat or cow. If you get written permission for the species then they can only kick you out for problems it causes down the line but a red is pretty much guaranteed to cause problems. But not only can they kick you out they can charge you for the damage that goes over the deposit.


Northern Exotics still breeds them. At least they were the ones whose list I was on since I last spoke to them about a year ago until I found a possibly better option. I was told I'd have to wait a couple of years, that's when I signed up on their waiting list 2 years ago. I never said I would sneak anything in...... I wouldn't live anywhere they were specifically excluded so it would be on the table from the start. Also there are fox owners in Montreal... Hence why it's one of the few & only province and city in Canada without Fennec, Red, Arctic, Silver foxes ban or any other for that matter. It's the entire reason I'm moving back there. Even looking at a compilation of all damage done by foxes even in houses, it still looks very manageable and avoidable too. Most heavy damage is done when the owner isn't looking or supervising and it happens mostly in spots you can predict, if you know a wall in your house is hollow and weaker than foundation pillars then obviously stack a drawer or flat immobile sturdy furniture.


Also that pic is of an adult Silver and a semi-adolescent Fennec. It was one of the few videos I found on two actually meeting but you can tell the Fennec isn't full grown yet.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby Juska » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:30 am

amine9876 wrote:After reviewing my mass collection of videos on two screens and comparing size differences of most in relation to the furniture and owner, I'm convinced the size difference between a red and fennec is subjective. A full size adult fennec next to some reds seem to be only a few cm apart in volume.

You seem convinced that fennecs and reds are generally the same or close in size. They are not. Watching two different videos, filmed with different cameras at different angles, is not a good representation of size or how they would act in real life around each other.

Red fox: "They display significant individual, sexual, age and geographical variation in size. On average, adults measure 35–50 cm (14–20 in) high at the shoulder and 45–90 cm (18–35 in) in body length"

Fennec fox: "...body length of between 24–41 cm (9–16 in); it is around 20.3 cm (8 in) tall"

Image

An eight inch tall animal is much smaller than a 14 inch tall animal. A 9 inch long animal is much smaller than an 18 in long animal. See comparison above. An average red is twice the body length and almost twice the height of a fennec.

And you're not accounting for body weight. A red can weigh up to 30+ lbs. A fennec will grow to maybe 4 lbs. Are you absolutely sure your fennec won't be killed just because you hope it's a little bigger than normal, or your red is a little smaller?

amine9876 wrote:I'm still about 2 to 2.5 years away from securing my lifestyle, career and personal expenses to have every aspect of my schedule & finances covered. I just need to position myself to have high chances of ending up with a probably 33 to 40 cm Red. Next to a 25 to 28 cm Fennec the size difference isn't as frightening.

You are assuming you'll have all the best possible outcomes in every situation. And you are assuming you'll be able to do all of this by yourself. I suggest you plan for the worst and not the best because you will be nothing but disappointed if you get your hopes up about everything you are planning on. Like I noted above, fennecs don't get that big... I would consider the size difference very frightening, if I was a fennec fox living in the same house with a red that's allowed to roam free. Fennecs eat bugs and mice. Reds kill and eat things as large as rabbits and even cats. They have a stronger prey drive and a fennec is very close in size and description to something that a red would instinctively chase and kill.

When I was 16 I was convinced that I'd have a $70k+ a year job, own a house and have everything I wanted by the time I was 19-22. I'm 27 now and I have nothing that I thought I'd have back then. I don't even want a lot of the things I wanted at 22. Things change. You'll change. You need to prepare yourself for that instead of hoping everything will turn out the way you want it to.

amine9876 wrote:The noise isn't an issue as I not only state my occupation as musician but I find every one of Red and Fennec foxes' cries to be not only very tolerable for what you'd expect but even enjoyable (or is that just me lmao). Most if not all apartment complexes and condo buildings here are pet friendly and you can legally own up to 4 simultaneous animals in Montreal, not to mention that no fox specie is banned.

Is your career as a musician a steady one, with high job security? Because in order to have pets you must have steady reliable income. On another note, just because you say an annoying/loud sound doesn't bother you (that you've never heard in real life or had to live with constantly), does not mean it won't have an effect your neighbors. Legality of owning your animals means nothing if you get evicted for noise/smell complaints.

Have you ever heard a vixen in heat? It sounds like a grown woman screaming bloody murder. For hours if they're uninterrupted. I'm sure neither you nor your neighbors would consider that enjoyable after the first, second or third hour.

amine9876 wrote:So far my refined aims are:

-Get the 2 bedroom for sure
-Get the Fennec 2 years ahead of the others
-Reward intensively good play behaviour
-Supervise & reprimand violence early on & often
-Socialise as much as possible equally outdoors as indoors
-Apply every bit of information acquired on training impeccably
-Get the smallest breed obtainable via parent sizes
-Move to a house within 5 years of the Red being born
-Keep the Fennec close to me even more than planned
-(Turn the balcony into a fool proof safe space, only after careful review & planning)

Ask yourself these questions and answer them honestly:

Have you ever rented an apartment or signed a lease before?
Have you ever had a credit or background check run to be considered for renting an apartment?
What percentage of apartments for rent in the area are pet-friendly?
Can you afford the rent in the area you plan on moving to?
Have you ever made a down payment on a house or had a mortgage?
Are you sure you'll be allowed to perform construction on your rented apartment's balcony? If not, will the foxes just not have any outdoor enclosure?
Are you sure your pets will turn out to be the size you want, within centimeters? If not, what are the consequences of that?
Are you sure your pets will respond to your training methods and you have alternative ones and solutions for when they don't work?
Are you sure you will be able to keep your fennec literally attached at the hip at all times so your red doesn't attack it?
Do you have a plan if your two foxes just will not, under any circumstance, get along?
Do you have a plan if the smell, damage and/or noise becomes unbearable or the neighbors complain about it?
Do you have a plan if one or both foxes cause damage to your rented apartment and your landlord is not forgiving about it?
Will you have a budget to fix the damage they might cause?
Will you have a budget to take them to an exotic vet and possibly have to pay very high vet bills to get them treated?
Will you have a budget to feed them both a proper diet?
Where will you keep them when you are at work?
What happens if you have to go to the hospital or out of town? Who will take care of them?
What happens if you don't have enough time and/or energy to keep up with both of them?
What happens if you walk your fox outside and someone calls the police or harasses you, because they think you have a wild animal in your possession?

I'm not trying to be nasty or turn you away from your dreams, but you need to have a reality check about these things. People are telling you facts from experience with their animals. You have "I watched videos of other people's animals online" as your experience. Listen to what they're saying and maybe think about altering your plans to suit the logical advice you are being given.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:55 pm

I am about to go to an expo in Nashville tn and I'm bringing my youngest red, who is about 7mo old and not full grown. My friend will be there with her adult fennec who is about 3yrs, and I am going to make sure I get a photo of them either close enough together where you can see size difference, or with both of us holding our babies, it'll be on my ig as soon as I get it. We're going next week together. Please keep an eye out on my ig, which is 4 foxes and a trashpanda. There is a major size difference and my baby is very petite and not full grown
You are forever responsible for what you've tamed, responsible pet ownership starts with you.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:50 pm

linseylou wrote:I am about to go to an expo in Nashville tn and I'm bringing my youngest red, who is about 7mo old and not full grown. My friend will be there with her adult fennec who is about 3yrs, and I am going to make sure I get a photo of them either close enough together where you can see size difference, or with both of us holding our babies, it'll be on my ig as soon as I get it. We're going next week together. Please keep an eye out on my ig, which is 4 foxes and a trashpanda. There is a major size difference and my baby is very petite and not full grown


I've held both couple months old Red and Fennec and played shortly with an adult size Fennec and an adult Red.
The poster above you has started making this thread sound like I'm asking for advice on how to be an adult. As if I haven't been reading, learning, searching, planning & interacting with those very species.

The entire reason I said size difference is subjective is to push people to pay closer attention to the size difference between various Reds of some people, and the very distinct features of some Fennecs, certain foxes looking a little bigger, fluffier and slightly chubbier, while some fennecs remain sleek, short haired and skinny despite eating very well and reaching adult age. Some people in these forums seem keen on taking differently aged foxes to prove a point. As if my recognition of a human hand next to a couch, paused with another human cuddling another fox on practically the same sized couch and saying it's like the difference between a Doberman & a Shihtzu.

It's as if I literally said "Fennecs and Reds are practically the same size". This is why I had a certain sentence at the very beginning of my post but removed it because I knew it wouldn't stop people from not seeing that I'm already taking every precaution to making this work but as if I was learning about them for the first time lmao.....
Last edited by amine9876 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:54 pm

Juska wrote:
Red fox: "They display significant individual, sexual, age and geographical variation in size. On average, adults measure 35–50 cm (14–20 in) high at the shoulder and 45–90 cm (18–35 in) in body length"

Fennec fox: "...body length of between 24–41 cm (9–16 in); it is around 20.3 cm (8 in) tall"

Image

An eight inch tall animal is much smaller than a 14 inch tall animal. A 9 inch long animal is much smaller than an 18 in long animal. See comparison above. An average red is twice the body length and almost twice the height of a fennec.

And you're not accounting for body weight. A red can weigh up to 30+ lbs. A fennec will grow to maybe 4 lbs. Are you absolutely sure your fennec won't be killed just because you hope it's a little bigger than normal, or your red is a little smaller?

You are assuming you'll have all the best possible outcomes in every situation. And you are assuming you'll be able to do all of this by yourself. I suggest you plan for the worst and not the best because you will be nothing but disappointed if you get your hopes up about everything you are planning on. Like I noted above, fennecs don't get that big... I would consider the size difference very frightening, if I was a fennec fox living in the same house with a red that's allowed to roam free. Fennecs eat bugs and mice. Reds kill and eat things as large as rabbits and even cats. They have a stronger prey drive and a fennec is very close in size and description to something that a red would instinctively chase and kill.

When I was 16 I was convinced that I'd have a $70k+ a year job, own a house and have everything I wanted by the time I was 19-22. I'm 27 now and I have nothing that I thought I'd have back then. I don't even want a lot of the things I wanted at 22. Things change. You'll change. You need to prepare yourself for that instead of hoping everything will turn out the way you want it to.

Is your career as a musician a steady one, with high job security? Because in order to have pets you must have steady reliable income. On another note, just because you say an annoying/loud sound doesn't bother you (that you've never heard in real life or had to live with constantly), does not mean it won't have an effect your neighbors. Legality of owning your animals means nothing if you get evicted for noise/smell complaints.

Have you ever heard a vixen in heat? It sounds like a grown woman screaming bloody murder. For hours if they're uninterrupted. I'm sure neither you nor your neighbors would consider that enjoyable after the first, second or third hour.

Ask yourself these questions and answer them honestly:

Have you ever rented an apartment or signed a lease before?
Have you ever had a credit or background check run to be considered for renting an apartment?
What percentage of apartments for rent in the area are pet-friendly?
Can you afford the rent in the area you plan on moving to?
Have you ever made a down payment on a house or had a mortgage?
Are you sure you'll be allowed to perform construction on your rented apartment's balcony? If not, will the foxes just not have any outdoor enclosure?
Are you sure your pets will turn out to be the size you want, within centimeters? If not, what are the consequences of that?
Are you sure your pets will respond to your training methods and you have alternative ones and solutions for when they don't work?
Are you sure you will be able to keep your fennec literally attached at the hip at all times so your red doesn't attack it?
Do you have a plan if your two foxes just will not, under any circumstance, get along?
Do you have a plan if the smell, damage and/or noise becomes unbearable or the neighbors complain about it?
Do you have a plan if one or both foxes cause damage to your rented apartment and your landlord is not forgiving about it?
Will you have a budget to fix the damage they might cause?
Will you have a budget to take them to an exotic vet and possibly have to pay very high vet bills to get them treated?
Will you have a budget to feed them both a proper diet?
Where will you keep them when you are at work?
What happens if you have to go to the hospital or out of town? Who will take care of them?
What happens if you don't have enough time and/or energy to keep up with both of them?
What happens if you walk your fox outside and someone calls the police or harasses you, because they think you have a wild animal in your possession?

I'm not trying to be nasty or turn you away from your dreams, but you need to have a reality check about these things. People are telling you facts from experience with their animals. You have "I watched videos of other people's animals online" as your experience. Listen to what they're saying and maybe think about altering your plans to suit the logical advice you are being given.


I would have liked to be as specific as I am about every personal aspect of my life and divulging 150% of my details with strangers online. But I'm not THAT stupid.

I would have preferred to stay on topic and not be interviewed as if I was getting a credit check to get a loan from you.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby linseylou » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:20 pm

I've held both couple months old Red and Fennec and played shortly with an adult size Fennec and an adult Red.
The poster above you has started making this thread sound like I'm asking for advice on how to be an adult. As if I haven't been reading, learning, searching, planning & interacting with those very species.

The entire reason I said size difference is subjective is to push people to pay closer attention to the size difference between various Reds of some people, and the very distinct features of some Fennecs, certain foxes looking a little bigger, fluffier and slightly chubbier, while some fennecs remain sleek, short haired and skinny despite eating very well and reaching adult age. Some people in these forums seem keen on taking differently aged foxes to prove a point. As if my recognition of a human hand next to a couch, paused with another human cuddling another fox on practically the same sized couch and saying it's like the difference between a Doberman & a Shihtzu.

It's as if I literally said "Fennecs and Reds are practically the same size". This is why I had a certain sentence at the very beginning of my post but removed it because I knew it wouldn't stop people from not seeing that I'm already taking every precaution to making this work but as if I was learning about them for the first time lmao.....


I'm not trying to say you haven't done any research, I promise. Just trying to help you see size difference with a picture. My friend and I hang out allot and bring our babies out together,I just don't have any pictures of them close enough to see the size difference. We have measured her fennecs ears and compared them to my small red Fox's ears and they are the same size of that tells you anything. you seem determined to allow them to interact, so I just hope you're careful. I hear about so many accidents with foxes and other animals that I would be too worried to allow them to interact if it was me. But I allow my raccoon to interact with all my foxes while a friend of mine wouldn't do that. Fennecs are typically smaller than a house cat and I see people with foxes and cats who say their fox killed their cat within a ft or 2 of them and they couldn't stop it in time,I just don't want to see any stories like that if I can help it
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby Lara » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:28 pm

I personally am not questioning that you researched, its just that no amount of research can equal experience. You asked a question, and several people who own and are familiar with foxes have given you an answer. You do have some valid points. If you were able to get a large fennec and small red, there would be less risk. However, foxes are just unpredictable animals. Fennecs weigh about as much as a wild rabbit, which reds will easily kill. Small reds, in my experience, are usually more hyper and high strung than larger ones, so it is difficult to find a happy medium.

I am sure we all sound like jerks. It is really hard when you love animals and know you are capable of caring for them, but aren't necessarily in the situation to do so. I've been there, and probably not made the best decisions all the time. Everybody here cares about the animals, and it probably comes of pretty condescending when we advise against something. We are just trying to offer advice to help you and your future pets, even if it doesn't come off that way.

Also, just wanted to note that Juska told you to ask yourself those questions. No one expects you to disclose that much info to us, that would be creepy.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:31 pm

linseylou wrote:
I'm not trying to say you haven't done any research, I promise. Just trying to help you see size difference with a picture. My friend and I hang out allot and bring our babies out together,I just don't have any pictures of them close enough to see the size difference. We have measured her fennecs ears and compared them to my small red Fox's ears and they are the same size of that tells you anything. you seem determined to allow them to interact, so I just hope you're careful. I hear about so many accidents with foxes and other animals that I would be too worried to allow them to interact if it was me. But I allow my raccoon to interact with all my foxes while a friend of mine wouldn't do that. Fennecs are typically smaller than a house cat and I see people with foxes and cats who say their fox killed their cat within a ft or 2 of them and they couldn't stop it in time,I just don't want to see any stories like that if I can help it


Oh no don't worry I fully appreciate your tone and all the information you've offered and I'm very grateful. My last reply wasn't correlating to you & I.
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Re: Can a Fennec, Red & Klee Kai coexist indoors

Postby amine9876 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 pm

Lara wrote:I personally am not questioning that you researched, its just that no amount of research can equal experience. You asked a question, and several people who own and are familiar with foxes have given you an answer. You do have some valid points. If you were able to get a large fennec and small red, there would be less risk. However, foxes are just unpredictable animals. Fennecs weigh about as much as a wild rabbit, which reds will easily kill. Small reds, in my experience, are usually more hyper and high strung than larger ones, so it is difficult to find a happy medium.

I am sure we all sound like jerks. It is really hard when you love animals and know you are capable of caring for them, but aren't necessarily in the situation to do so. I've been there, and probably not made the best decisions all the time. Everybody here cares about the animals, and it probably comes of pretty condescending when we advise against something. We are just trying to offer advice to help you and your future pets, even if it doesn't come off that way.

Also, just wanted to note that Juska told you to ask yourself those questions. No one expects you to disclose that much info to us, that would be creepy.


Fear not I appreciate how you came at it. The thing I was obviously predicting with this thread was that I'd accidentally end up perceived as one of the many people on this forum and places like Quora & Yahoo Answers asking amateur questions about owning exotic animals without a modicum of study poured into it first.

I just knew sooner or later that it would get out of control and somebody and eventually more would come to this thread thinking I'm just an eager kid trying to make this happen regardless of how it needs to despite not knowing enough already.

Trust me I value experience very much. Which is why I even bothered to ask for different insights so I can adopt every avenue and prepare fully. I've asked myself those questions already, which is why it sounds like I haven't because I haven't specified my answers for them in advance. It's also why I gave the heads up that money is of no object BUT that I'm still 2 years away to having everything well and ready. I am even in position to care for them now if I wanted to; It just wouldn't be smart with how long I waited and how much better it can be if I just wait a little bit more. Most of my plans are secured already, there's just certain legislation, moving processes & personal affairs I'm still currently wrapping up. It's also why I asked this question now instead of even further down the line.

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