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Sigh..neighbors.

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the_unstable
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby the_unstable » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:46 pm

That is very irksome that your neighbor went around and told EVERYONE about your getting a fox. I am surprised that they did not even contact you to find out what you were building the enclosure for, they simply and ignorantly told you to stop. If it weren't for that nutty neighbor, you wouldn't have to meet with the attorney and all that crap.

You mentioned moving...it honestly may be a good idea, somewhere nice and rural would be safe, hard to find, no one would have to know about Anya. Now that your neighbor has stirred everything up and everyone knows, you might be met with a ton of problems and opposition from them.

Good luck to you. It sounds like things will be fine legal-wise.
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amyers
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby amyers » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:22 pm

I wonder what it is about foxes... I have a pair of servals in my backyard, and no one has ever said a peep. The worst complaint we've ever had was our dumpster was too smelly (really??). At the center, we've gotten WAY more complaints over ham radio equipment that from the cats, even when the female panther goes into heat.
Proud mom to 11 domestic cats, 3 dogs, 2 bobcats, 3 servals, 2 cougars, 1 Siberian lynx, 1 squirrel, and counting!
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zebrafox
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby zebrafox » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:33 pm

unstable - yes it is VERY irksome. And she wasnt telling them it was a domestic fox, and she was telling them it was illegal for me to have it.
I couldnt believe no one from the city tried to contact me. the ceassation notice they left said something like "we heard this enclosure is for a fox - only domestic animals can go in enclosures so stop." They didnt even give me a chance to tell them the truth! Insane that an alarmist can lie to the government and have someone else's rights taken away so fast like that. Unbelievable really.
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Alynn
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Alynn » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:36 pm

Hold on a sec, Zebra. I know of a piece of legislation in Michigan that might help you. It defines foxes as domesticated. Let me try to dig it up.

edit: typo and:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fl4gupb0qsxb5g453jgzlw45))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-324-43101.pdf

It does not include red foxes in coloration, but it pretty much states that foxes that are bred and born on a ranch are considered domesticated in the same sense that a dog or a cat would be.
Shove that in her face and maybe that will get her to shut up.
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TobiasAmaranth
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby TobiasAmaranth » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:20 pm

Oooh nice, a general law about farm foxes being classed as domesticated. That will be a huge help! Good find, Alynn and it takes a load off my mind on whether she'll have problems during this sit-down. And it'll be good to have that out of the way before the foxes is purchased and acquired, rather than having it confiscated after the fact for some random missed piece of information. There's certainly a good side to this, that's for sure. But guahhh, I still feel bad how many problems you've had trying to get one of these critters. *offers a hug* It just isn't falling into place for you. :<
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foxftw
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby foxftw » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:42 am

wow you have some crazy neighbors but none of this hate or irrational fear is surprising. humans do alot of stupid things due to ignorance and stupidity. ignorance causes racism allowing the KKK to still exist to this day and and it allows the west borough baptist church to go protest military funerals because they hate gay people so much. ignorance is a terrible and powerful motivator. hopefully your other neighbors are reasonable and intelligent unlike this lady and will stop worrying with a little education.
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blacksagephoenix
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby blacksagephoenix » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:49 pm

Wow Zebra! No one will just give you a break, will they? I have been following your journey (along with everyone else here!) and you really have gone through so much.

Alynn, great find!! That definitely will help Zebra in her fight for Anya! Take that to the lawyer, the neighbor, the person in charge of that notice, and to the neighborhood watch meeting! It should shut people up quick and in a hurry!

Good luck! I think you will be alright though. But if for some reason they want to STILL tell you that you are wrong, maybe try petitioning against them...? I am sure you could start an online petition somewhere and we, ofcourse, would all be willing to sign it in your favor, as well as your friends and family outside of Sybils Den.
*~*~*~*~* Chell *~*~*~*~*

Mother of one daughter, one dog, two cats, one fennec fox, three hedgehogs, two short tailed opossums, three sugar gliders, three velveteen rabbits, one bearded dragon, one tortoise, twelve ball pythons, and several rats.
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby suki'smom » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:30 pm

Yes, it is quite sad how some people react to foxes. I had one lady get in my face, while I was walking Suki down a back road, and tell me how cruel I was being for taking a wild animal out of its natural habitat, and that I needed to set her free right then and there. Its something that comes with therritory, unfortunately. I wish you the best of luck and I hope this woman does not cause too much of a problem for you and your baby.
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zebrafox
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby zebrafox » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:51 pm

Alynn, GREAT find, i really appreciate it. I will be using that if the material I put together for the code enforcement guy isnt enough. I met him this morning, he seems really nice and reasonable. Given that, I think things will go in my favor. But we will see.

Well at no point did I think trying to make my lifelong dream of owning a fox would ever be easy, and it's my nature that the more obstacles are thrown at me when trying to get something I want, the more stubborn and determined I become :P

Finally the institute has begun the export documentation process. They estimate 30-50 days before Anya will be ready to be picked up.

I just know that Anya will be worth it. With the enclosure, custom welded shipping container to meet airline standards, the price of my importers services plus his ticket to and lodging in russia, at the end of this I will have spent more on her than on Viktor through Sibfox. But as someone who does not want children - she will be my baby, my everything, and she will be saved from being sent to a fur farm, so it will be worth it to me.

It is also an idea I have that, if we are able to successfully import Anya, to discuss with the Institute the possibility of me setting up an import service for the foxes similar to what Sibfox was trying to do (but obviously the RIGHT way.) It would help the researchers out by them not having to explain the process and work with the customers on a daily basis, and it would help the Americans by being able to communicate with native english speakers and having a clear list of whats necessary, and someone whos done it before guiding them along the way. So, if we are able to successfully import anya, I am considering talking to the russians about this.
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amyers
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby amyers » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:07 pm

Also, I'm pretty sure Virginia defines red foxes as domesticated animals.
Proud mom to 11 domestic cats, 3 dogs, 2 bobcats, 3 servals, 2 cougars, 1 Siberian lynx, 1 squirrel, and counting!
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foxftw
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby foxftw » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:16 pm

that sounds like a great idea. if you do set that up you can import my fox when i get it one of these years.
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zebrafox
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby zebrafox » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:33 pm

Day 2 of trying to convince the city that domestic foxes are domestic.

I put together an information packet, including the nat geo article, wikipedia article, some research papers written by Lyudmila Trut, and an article published in a cornell university journal regarding the comparison of dog and domestic fox dna.

I gave this packet to the code enforcement building inspector who had construction halted on my enclosure. He read a lot of it, and even went online and did more research, watched some youtube videos of domestic foxes and everything.
I believe he agrees with me, but he is not in the authority to make the judgement i guess, so he went to his boss, the City Manager, and explained the situation. City Managers response: a short and sweet "no". No reasons, no justifications. Just no.

I called John (the code enforcement guy) and told him that this makes no sense.

Firstly, there is NO LAW that says i cant have a pen and put my fox into it. The only law they have concerning special buildings and animals is:
Veterinary Offices, Clinics, and Hospitals; Animal Grooming and Training Establishments.

1.

Such facilities shall be used only for domesticated animals. Nondomesticated, wild, exotic or vicious animals shall not be permitted.

2.

Veterinary and animal grooming uses may be permitted as accessory uses to retail pet supply establishments if approved by the planning commission.

3.

All principal use activities shall be conducted within a totally enclosed principal building; no outdoor animal enclosures or runs are permitted unless a separate special land use has been approved for a kennel.

4.

Any indoor boarding shall be limited to that incidental to treatment or surgery unless the use has also been approved as a kennel.

5.

Such facilities shall be subject to other conditions and requirements necessary to ensure against the occurrence of any possible nuisance (i.e., fencing, soundproofing, sanitary requirements).


Okay, im not a Veterinary Office, Clinic, and Hospital; Animal Grooming and Training Establishment. We know im not the first 3, but the last one is vague. lets look at their own ordinance definitions for it:
Animal grooming and training establishment: Any place or establishment where animals are bathed, clipped, combed or otherwise cared for with the purpose of enhancing their aesthetic value or health, or where intermittent training classes are offered for the purpose of animal obedience. Grooming and training establishments may include animal day care facilities, and are distinct from kennels and veterinary clinics since their primary purpose is not to provide medical care, treatment or twenty-four-hour care or boarding.

Nope...not what this is. Okay, but lets say for some reason this case falls under that category, since there is no other possible category.
Lets look at their ordinances own definitions for exotic and domesticated animals.

Animal, domesticated: Any animal that is commonly considered capable of being trained or is capable of adapting to living in a human environment and being of use to human beings, and which is not likely to bite without provocation, nor cause death, maiming or illness to human beings, including: birds (caged), fish, turtles, rodents (bred, such as gerbils, rabbits, hamsters or guinea pigs), cats (domesticated), lizards (nonpoisonous) and dogs. Wild, vicious, or exotic animals shall not be considered domesticated.

Animal, exotic: Any animal of a species not indigenous to the State of Michigan and not a domesticated animal, including any hybrid animal that is part exotic animal.

This animal is unequivocably considered domesticated by all of science. Here is the wiki definition of what my fox is:
The domesticated silver fox (marketed as the Siberian fox) is a domesticated form of the silver morph of the red fox.

Makes sense that the domestic fox is domesticated. But whats domesticated, you ask?
for domesticated:
Domestication (from Latin domesticus) is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of artificial selection, is changed at the genetic level, accentuating traits desired by humans. It differs from taming in that a change in the phenotypical expression and genotype of the animal occurs, where as taming is simply the process where animals become acclimatized to human presence. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'.

Yeah. That sounds....about...exactly what this well-documented experiment has done, doesnt it?
Vulpes vulpes is native to michigan, which means it cant be called an exotic by THEIR OWN DEFINITIONS.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE THE ARGUEMENT HERE????
Meanwhile, the russians are preparing exportation and will be ready soon to ship Anya. My enclosure is half finished. I cant get my permit to allow me to bring anya into the state until i have my enclosure inspected. Then, it will take up to a month or so for the government to approve and prepare and send to me my permit. THERE IS NOT TIME FOR THIS BULL#$&^.
I will be speaking to an attorney today. This is utterly ridiculous. My legal rights are being stolen from me right out from under my nose. What the &*#$ COUNTRY AM I LIVING IN!???
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foxftw
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby foxftw » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:57 pm

this makes me super angry! i live in michigan and if this is the crap you have to go through i think we need to work on fixing it!
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the_unstable
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby the_unstable » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:03 pm

Oh no, Zebra. That really infuriates me and I know the sort of thing you're going through. Even if you point out direct laws and show that you qualify for whatever, they'll still just outright, and rudely, say no. Interpretation is perfectly clear but they deny stuff anyway. It is the most infuriating thing ever. I hope you can get this sorted out.
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Ash
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Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Ash » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:00 pm

Yes, definitely consult a lawyer as soon as you can. You are well within your rights to own Anya and nobody can legally take those rights away from you. I would call up the city manager and this John fellow and tell them you're speaking with an attorney.

In fact, I would approach them like this:
I'm getting a domesticated red fox. It is perfectly legal by state and city law. If it is seized by the city or I am denied ownership of this animal, I will not hesitate to take you to court.

Except don't make it seem so "ultimatum-ish," lol.

You're right. You don't have time for this garbage. I don't exactly see how they can stop the enclosure's construction. There isn't anything in the law about it, so that's just ridiculous.
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