Dog Food Recalls: viewforum.php?f=67

Sigh..neighbors.

Red, Silver, Marble,Fennec, grey, corsac, Artic Etc.

Moderators: Ash, hecate, TamanduaGirl

User avatar
TamanduaGirl
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10596
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:08 pm

Even if you were illegal to have the fox in an enclosure, though you obviously aren't, they really have no right to stop you building it. I mean keeping a wild animal in an enclosure is illegal right, not building an enclosure.

The lawyer should help but if they stay stubborn it'll take time too.
User avatar
TobiasAmaranth
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:33 pm
Location: Round Rock, TX
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby TobiasAmaranth » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:23 pm

If it would help at all for me to make some sort of phone call, or for any of us here to help lobby for your rights, don't hesitate to let us know where to take our information. If there's anything that ticks me off about government more than anything else, it's getting a 'no' without any accompanying logic.

As a bit of information, from what I'm aware, the Siberian foxes are only self-termed domesticated. They are not officially recognized as being domesticated for legal purposes. However, the article linked by Alynn earlier that talks of farm foxes having the same rights as cats and dogs does work, but it does not mention red foxes. Though to be fair it seems to only be mentioning color morphs of vulpes vulpes which should be irrelevant. Especially since there's more difference between Anya and a wild red than between a wild of any other phase and farm fox silvers, etc. Beyond that, the fact is that the experiment did in fact begin with silver phase foxes, which are still vulpes vulpes and can still breed into reds. Coat patterning does nothing but say at a glance that they are from a fur farm. *shrug* I am amused by that last line, though: "Any animal of a species not indigenous to the State of Michigan and not a domesticated animal," definitely should cover that off base that she's a 'red phase vulpes vulpes' and therefore not domesticated, by at least classing her as not exotic.

A point to note, these foxes may be considered to technically bite. However this is not a ferocious animal, angry type biting but a gentle playful nipping. Because this is an unusual behavior, even though it is safe, you might avoid mentioning it and for a while after getting her, avoid having anyone over who might not understand that the biting isn't going to hurt them.

Lastly, what are the legal definitions of being a kennel? "no outdoor animal enclosures or runs are permitted unless a separate special land use has been approved for a kennel." Yes this is in relation to the veterinary usage section, but I'm curious what they define as a kennel there.
Footage of two Russian Domesticated foxes, currently residing at the Austin Zoo and Animal Sanctuary.
25-clip Playlist - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2E542464FD1F2CCE
User avatar
haira32
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:26 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby haira32 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:11 pm

It's really sad that nothing can get done anymore with out lots of money and lawyers.
I really really hope you get this all settled Zebra. We all just want you to have a happy ending with your fox.
User avatar
Nova
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Nova » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:03 pm

I would definitely approach them on the cessation for construction, there is nothing that says you can't build it by city code regardless of what is going in there. It breaks no laws, and it's on your own property which taxes are paid for, they don't truly have the space to stop you. I also doubt they can stop you from the fox, but I would take it in baby steps. Get rid of the stop on construction, that way you can continue construction while you may have to fight with them on anything else.

Also, this is complete bull and scare-tactics on behalf of the government. I would definitely get them on interpretation of the law, as they have no right to truly stop you from building. You are building, and are getting it inspected upon completion, no law is stopping you.

I hope you can work together with the lawyer to stop this nonsense. If not, depending on what contacts you have, I would use their own tactic against them. the reason they are saying no is pressure from the populace, if you know anybody in media (local news, or even blogs) and get them talking about it which makes them look bad. . .everybody hates some bad press. It's a bit underhanded, but it's fighting fair by how their acting :monk-dev:
Current Pets: Yokai the ferret, Lumi the shepherd mix and Arel the mutt dog.

Dream pet: An European badger, Raven, Cephalopods!
User avatar
TobiasAmaranth
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:33 pm
Location: Round Rock, TX
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby TobiasAmaranth » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:51 am

@Nova - I've considered once there's more public-eye information on these guys to do something like that towards the Austin Zoo. Putting the spin on it that they're keeping what are -supposed- to be pets as zoo animals. That it's like keeping a dog there, etc. I can't do that without more widespread knowledge of these amazing creatures though.

Can't wait to see the article this Moscow guy is putting together. He's good at finding info and at asking questions that people want to know. :3
Footage of two Russian Domesticated foxes, currently residing at the Austin Zoo and Animal Sanctuary.
25-clip Playlist - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2E542464FD1F2CCE
User avatar
the_unstable
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:46 pm

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby the_unstable » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:26 pm

TobiasAmaranth wrote:Putting the spin on it that they're keeping what are -supposed- to be pets as zoo animals. That it's like keeping a dog there, etc.


Going to have to disagree on this one I think. There is such a lack of information on what these foxes are like as pets. They've not been bred in captivity nearly long enough to be domesticated. They are still foxes, and I am putting my money on the idea that they are not domesticated like dogs.
User avatar
TobiasAmaranth
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:33 pm
Location: Round Rock, TX
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby TobiasAmaranth » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:29 pm

I'm not so sure of that. They have different behaviors, but in terms of getting along with people they seem further along than I would have guessed before meeting them. But that's exactly why I would be waiting. There's need for more information on them before such a claim can truly be made. However, either way, this situation does not have any precedent, which is why attention needs to be called to it at some point. The news will decide to spin it however -they- want, and my suggestion was merely playing by how they play.

That Zebrafox hasn't had time to post today has me worried. I hope she's making some progress with her situation.
Footage of two Russian Domesticated foxes, currently residing at the Austin Zoo and Animal Sanctuary.
25-clip Playlist - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2E542464FD1F2CCE
User avatar
Nova
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Nova » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:04 am

I don't think many things can be as domesticated as a dog (look at a dog versus your usual house cat) but I do think it comes down to a discussion of what exactly IS domesticated? Where do you draw the line as to what is and what isn't? To that I haven't found a clear distinction scientifically let alone a chosen law as to where that lies.

Still, I hope things are going ok for Zebra. . .this has been rough for her to begin with so having this added on to it. Some people need to learn to mind their own business.
Current Pets: Yokai the ferret, Lumi the shepherd mix and Arel the mutt dog.

Dream pet: An European badger, Raven, Cephalopods!
User avatar
blacksagephoenix
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:56 pm

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby blacksagephoenix » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:05 am

Domestication means to be "genetically altered to be tame". Tame is "trained to deal with humans". Not exact definitions, but in my own words based off what I studied at the zoo in college.
*~*~*~*~* Chell *~*~*~*~*

Mother of one daughter, one dog, two cats, one fennec fox, three hedgehogs, two short tailed opossums, three sugar gliders, three velveteen rabbits, one bearded dragon, one tortoise, twelve ball pythons, and several rats.
User avatar
zebrafox
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 9:51 am
Location: MI

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby zebrafox » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:27 am

i guess government doesnt work weekends and today is a holiday for them so i waste 3 more days waiting for this asinine decision.

Tomorrow im calling to demand I be allowed to finish the enclosure, even if i need to tell them its for "my cat". Theres NO LAW that says i cant have my building, and they cant stop me just because of what i *might* put in it!!!!!!
User avatar
Nova
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Nova » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:45 pm

Gotta love bureaucratic nonsense, keep it together Zebra and wait until tomorrow. Then you'll be able to give them the earful they deserve.

To blacksagepheonix - from what I understand of these foxes they have been genetically changed in order to be considered domesticated, so it would mostly be the USA accepting their guidelines or having to put up guidelines of what exactly is genetically altered enough to be domesticated? I'm really curious how any animal not already considered domesticated could come to be as such. . .
Current Pets: Yokai the ferret, Lumi the shepherd mix and Arel the mutt dog.

Dream pet: An European badger, Raven, Cephalopods!
User avatar
zebrafox
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 9:51 am
Location: MI

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby zebrafox » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:19 pm

So, I managed to make the point that there was NO LAW against having a fox and even if there were, that is not a reason that gives them the right to stop construction.

Prior to the building inspector knowing it was for a fox, he had approved the enclosure. Now that he knows what its for and that a neighbor complained, he's made me stop building. But I told him he cant stop construction without legal substantiation, so now he has been looking in the ordinances and scrutinizing the enclosure to make sure it adheres to every possible zoning stipulation. (i think this city government is used to just telling people things that arent true and operating illegally and not having people question it out of fear) Also, if you want to see some really mindblowingly stupid laws, look at your city ordinances.

Turns out my enclosure was maybe a foot or so too close to the end of my lot line ( :roll: ) so im redoing the design and have to have him approve it before we start over...

After i get his approval and finish construction, im going to confront him and give him the opportunity to rescind the statement he wrote on the cessation notice ("foxes arent allowed in residential areas"). According to the zoning board of appeals, I can make an appeal if an official makes an arbitrary decision as such which is not based on law and tries to enforce it. I have to pay 100$ though which is BULL (YES i get to pay 100$ to get my rights back that i already have under the law!). Then, depending on the outcome, I may or may not sue the city.So we'll see. At this point the only legal thing they could do to keep me from having a fox is to pass a new law that states such. And thats what makes me most angry about all of this - there is NO REASON for that and the city wouldnt have even noticed or cared if my thickheaded cowardly neighbhor wasnt so terrified.

I went back and talked to her after she read the national geographic and she said, she still "Doesnt Believe You Can Domesticate Something That Fast", and that she will have "Told Me So if my fox gets out and hurts one of the neighbors", and "Theres Parts In The Article That Support Her Fears", but she refused to open the magazine and discuss them with me because she "Didnt want to Get into Details Right now." (translation: I still have no rational basis for any of my fears but ill die before I let go of them).
She then went on to personally insult me, and called my boyfriend a "live-in" because we arent married yet. She was never my friend, and clearly only lives to make things difficult for me. Shes messing with the wrong neighbor though. I am relentless.
User avatar
the_unstable
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:46 pm

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby the_unstable » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Way to go, Zebra! Kick some *** - legally lol. I hope you're not losing money on having to start over on the enclosure construction. That is such obnoxious BS that they're putting you through. It is absolute bull that you have to pay $100 for the appeal. ARGH. I wish you good luck on this. Keep us updated.
User avatar
Lasergrl
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1773
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:50 pm
Location: northeast, Ohio

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Lasergrl » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:23 pm

I would honestly look at moving to a more rural area if at ALL possible.
User avatar
Nova
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Sigh..neighbors.

Postby Nova » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:46 pm

I must agree this is bureaucratic BS. And yes, some of the stupidest laws imaginable are in city ordinance (carson city, where I grew up, has a law against playing ball in the street). There is always some silly law they will try to quote, and it sucks that you have to start all over again when the last enclosure was approved. I would definitely start looking into any sort of protection you can get on this next approval so they can't have you start building and then rescind it again.
Current Pets: Yokai the ferret, Lumi the shepherd mix and Arel the mutt dog.

Dream pet: An European badger, Raven, Cephalopods!

Return to “FOXES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest