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Texas and furbearers

Exotic legal issues, bans, laws, regulations, Animal Rights discussions etc.

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TexasYankee
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sat May 30, 2015 9:59 pm

I assume you're talking about ringtails, rather than cacomistles?

Do you know if these ringtails were parent-raised or bottle-raised?
I think that ringtails kept as pets generally were taken as adults, and tamed right down. Maybe if people bottle-raise the babies, the bottle-raised babies don't know how to raise their own young?

It would be interesting to experiment with. It might be that you'd have to domesticate the ringtail before it could become a common pet. Like if some females do rear their young, you'd clearly want to keep their young for breeding purposes.

Now a cacomistle female who attacks males 364 days out of the year: that's a problem I'm not sure how to solve, not unless you can find at least one who's more tolerant of other cacomistles year-round.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby Ash » Sat May 30, 2015 10:08 pm

Yeah, sorry, I'm talking about ringtails. ;) I do not know if the parents were captive-born.

No, these animals were killed by the mom. They did not die through bottle-feeding.

Generally animals that are hand-raised by humans should be better mothers in captivity since they will not be crazy-stressed by their humans/handlers. But that isn't true for all species, because we've seen in animals (like fennec foxes) the bad mothers were not spayed; this has resulted in most fennecs in the US not being reliable mothers. So for fennecs (due to the careless breeding of many owners) are typically better mothers if they are wild-caught or from fresh bloodlines.

Ideally, if you get a bad mom that killed her babies she would be culled (spayed in this case). But most people don't do that because they want to breed their expensive fennecs anyway and aren't willing to part with the possibility of their female having more kits. So then that perpetuates the problem, and more bad mommy genes get spread around. Finding new bloodlines is difficult, but is best for fennecs.

But like I said, generally animals that are accustomed to humans do better when raising their young. It highly depends on the species though, because even domestic cats will eat their babies if they are distressed by your presence.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
TexasYankee
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sat May 30, 2015 10:20 pm

And now, apparently, you're talking about fennecs.

My suggestion regarding ringtails was that bottle-raised mothers might not know how to raise their own young.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby Ash » Sun May 31, 2015 1:40 am

TexasYankee wrote:And now, apparently, you're talking about fennecs.

My suggestion regarding ringtails was that bottle-raised mothers might not know how to raise their own young.


Then sorry, I don't have an answer.

I thought my tangent with fennecs was relevant when talking about species that had high infanticide rates in captivity. I guess I didn't complete my thought, which was simply: I don't know about why infanticide rates for ringtails are high in captivity (according to the one member who owned some). You could very well be right, you could very well be wrong.

I was supporting your theory as well as challenging it with the fennec example. I supported your theory by saying that fennec mothers that are from the wild or are wild-caught tend to make better parents. Then I challenged your theory by bringing up the fact that since bottle-raised animals usually make for less stressed out parents, infanticide should be a lot less likely.

Sorry if you were looking for a yes or no answer. I was hypothesizing with you. Giving reasons why your theory could be correct, and why it could be incorrect.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sun May 31, 2015 9:20 am

Sorry, I was teasing you a bit. I should have used an emoticon.

I generally got the point you were trying the make. I do want to reiterate that since ringtails seem to take will to humans as adults, stress at being handled is unlikely to be an issue.

Like I said, the best way to figure things out would be to try to raise ringtails oneself. That is something I probably could do in Texas (propagation doesn't have to be for fur, though I couldn't sell them in state), if I had the money and space. Sadly, I am unlikely to have either for awhile.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby Ash » Sun May 31, 2015 12:36 pm

No worries, I was kind of in a weird mood last night, so shouldn't have been so... offended? in my response. Normally I wouldn't have read it the way I did. So yeah, I'm sorry about the way I responded.

I think if there is a possibility you could get some ringtails, you should go for it. I think they are really cool animals and it would be great if someone was able to test out the breeding and make some babies. They really would make amazing pets, and they'd be super popular. I think you should definitely go for it if you can. :icon-wink: I personally would love some.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sun May 31, 2015 3:53 pm

Again, it's not likely to happen in the near future.

It's a goal of mine to someday have the land to breed animals I'd like to have as pets and the money to obtain and care for them. It's a realistic goal, just not a near-term goal, especially not if I plan on doing things properly.

Ringtails do seem like they'd make a good starter animal though. Pretty much everything else I'd have to get an importer's permit from the USDA (and likely other agencies) and find a foreign supplier of wild stock.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby Ash » Sun May 31, 2015 9:40 pm

TexasYankee wrote:Again, it's not likely to happen in the near future.

It's a goal of mine to someday have the land to breed animals I'd like to have as pets and the money to obtain and care for them. It's a realistic goal, just not a near-term goal, especially not if I plan on doing things properly.

Ringtails do seem like they'd make a good starter animal though. Pretty much everything else I'd have to get an importer's permit from the USDA (and likely other agencies) and find a foreign supplier of wild stock.


As long as you keep up with research though and keeping in touch with the DNR about this or that, your chances will get better and better. Having a good relationship with your DNR is one of the best things to do if you're going to go with wild-caught (which may be your only option in the case of ringtails).

Good luck. :) I really hope you can eventually get there. I think it would be really cool to one day have a ringtail breeder, and I'd probably be one of your first customers, lol. :lol: But seriously, it's good to look at these things in advance--even if you're not planning to leap into anything soon. It gives you LOTS of time to prepare, research, and learn.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:51 pm

In case you're interested, I just thought I'd note that Macon Magic currently has ringtails for sale for $2,500 each.

http://www.exoticanimalsforsale.net/sal ... l-cats.asp
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby Ash » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:57 pm

Sweet. That's great to know. Thank you! :)
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TexasYankee
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:31 pm

So I have another question about these regs. Texas's furbearer regulations use common names only. Previously this wasn't an issue because the PWD interpreted the laws as applying only to native species, but they recently interpreted the ban on "foxes" as applying to fennecs as well.

However there's a breeder in Texas which sells bat-eated foxes, which makes it seem like the PWD isn't stupid enough to interpret the law as banning anything with the common name "fox" (since fox is a polyphyletic group including a variety of canids that aren't closely related), but rather to gray foxes and the genus Vulpes. Is this so?

And what's the status of short-tailed opossums? I assumed that since Texas's laws ban a list of species including "opossum," singular, suggesting that it refers to the Virginia opossum, rather than the entire order of opossums. However as I said, the reference to "wild" is unambiguous yet the PWD ignores that. Moreover I cannot find any breeders of STOs in Texas, and you'd think that if they were legal here they'd be common, as they are in Florida.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:31 pm

That breeder has a zoological permit for them and only sells them to licensed facilities. They also just got a trio of fennecs. They can't sell them in state as pets though and have to be sold out of state or if in state to a facility that is permitted like a zoo.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:23 pm

So they really are that stupid. :wall:

Do they also interpret "opossum" to mean all members of the opossum order, despite the wording very clearly intended to apply to species?

This, and the clear reference to "wild," seems like the sort of thing that should be taken to court by someone with time and money. But if I had that much time and money, I'd probably spend it on importing birds instead.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:40 pm

I don't know for sure on opossums since I haven't asked but probably. Only places with any sort I found have one of the special permits. I don't think lacking the S means anything like "a group of opossum" sounds fine though technically isn't and either way it was originally meant (plural or not) it still doesn't define a single species so they can interpret how they like now.
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Re: Texas and furbearers

Postby TexasYankee » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:35 pm

When did they re-interpret the fox thing? Using the Internet Archive on two places in Texas I know used to sell them, Helen's Little Critters stopped breeding them around 2011, and Sands Exotics sold them as "possums" until 2014.

And they can interpret it as they like as long as nobody challenges them on it, but as the law is written, using common names of single species, I would fully expect a court to look for either the meaning that the authors intended (implied as species by context and the fact that other opossum species aren't raised for fur), or the common meaning in Texas (Virginia opossum).

I think that a court challenge could also prevail on the definition of "wild," and might also prevail on the PWD's belief that the licensing of furbearers implies a total ban for other purposes.

I'm not a lawyer, but my mother is and I've taken courses on the jurisprudence in certain subfields of the law, so I know that a lot would depend on what the legal philosophy of the adjudicating judges is. And in Texas, that's likely be textualism.

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