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Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

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Peacefulward
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Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Peacefulward » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:30 am

Apparently non-native species of foxes are legal in NC. People have been pushing for foxes to be legalized here, and Maria Palmor (state veterinarian) as well as other prominent figures in the NC Fish & Wildlfie services and government have stated that all non-native species of foxes are legal and require no permits (including for import).
This is a bit confusing, considering the state law simply states "foxes" in general are illegal to own, but apparently that only applies to native species. Maria Palmor has also stated that work is being done to legalize red foxes as well...

Working on getting written explanations and vouchers as solid proof from these people. In the meantime, what do you guys think? icon_confused.gif
5 Dogs, 2 cats, 2 leopard geckos, 1 guinea pig, 1 axolotl, and a coatimundi currently in my family. :)

Exotic "wishlist": red fox, arctic fox, gray fox, bat eared fox, fennec fox, mink, muntjac deer, owl (any species).
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:13 pm

Well I couldn't find a definition in the codes for wildlife or foxes so it's basically like Texas and they can choose to interpret it how they want. In both cases it looks like they meant native wildlife to the state but in TX one day they decided it meant all foxes from anywhere, it wasn't defined so they could. If they say exotic foxes are legal that's good but there is the risk of getting someone else in charge someday who interprets it differently to mean all foxes. Getting some stuff in writing should help to at least maybe be grandfathered for a permit or something if they do change their minds later.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Vata Raven » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:12 pm

If you can post the links of the laws you were viewing, I'll take a look.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Peacefulward » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:08 pm

Vata Raven wrote:If you can post the links of the laws you were viewing, I'll take a look.


http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_ ... e.php?s=nc
Is the current law, which makes blanket statements that has lead people to believe all foxes are illegal.

I'm working on getting the state and FAWS to write up a guarantee that non-native foxes are legal. But other than that, they have only told me (and the other people who have asked) by word of mouth that non-native foxes are legal. icon_confused.gif

According to Maria Palmor (state vet) they're working on legalizing red foxes as well. She's told this to a couple other people (word of mouth) and also told it to me in a letter, responding to the request I sent a few months ago, asking the FAWS to legalize red fox ownership. I'll find the letter and post pics of it, if you'd like to see.

Evidently other members of the FAWS have responded the same way when inquired, but I have not asked them myself.
5 Dogs, 2 cats, 2 leopard geckos, 1 guinea pig, 1 axolotl, and a coatimundi currently in my family. :)

Exotic "wishlist": red fox, arctic fox, gray fox, bat eared fox, fennec fox, mink, muntjac deer, owl (any species).
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:36 pm

All rules are here to search through http://reports.oah.state.nc.us/ncac.asp
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Vata Raven » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Peacefulward wrote:http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_animals_state.php?s=nc
Is the current law, which makes blanket statements that has lead people to believe all foxes are illegal.

Going to be the bearer of bad news, Born Free USA is not the source you should even be using for these laws. Every state has their own wildlife commission website that will post their state laws pertaining to their native animals and ones you can import. Go directly to the source, not a secondary site.
Last edited by Vata Raven on Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Vata Raven » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:57 pm

This is the source you want to look at, not what you've been using
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Licensing/Oth ... conditions

A permit must be obtained from the NCDA&CS State Veterinarian before importing any of the following animals into North Carolina: skunk; fox; raccoon; ringtail; bobcat; other North and South American felines such as lynx, cougars, jaguars, etc.; marten; brushtail possum. Permits shall be issued ONLY if the animal(s) will be used in a research institute, exhibition by a USDA licensed exhibitor, or organized entertainment as in zoos or circuses.

The importation of gray foxes is prohibited in the following North Carolina counties: Anson, Avery, Burke, Cabarrus, Caldwell, Catawba, Cleveland, Davidson, Gaston, Lincoln, McDowell, Mecklenburg, Mitchell, Montgomery, Moore, Richmond, Rowan, Rutherford, Stanly, Union and Yancey.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Peacefulward » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:36 am

TamanduaGirl wrote:All rules are here to search through http://reports.oah.state.nc.us/ncac.asp


If people get written permission from the FAWS, would you say it's safe for them to get foxes?

A lot of people in NC are now considering getting foxes due to the recent revelation (I'm not the one spreading the news around, have only posted about it here) so do you think this is a disaster waiting to happen?
I mean, I personally wouldn't get a fox here until the FAWS edits their legislation to clarify that the term "fox" only refers to non-native species. Or maybe if i received written guarantees that it's legal, and my fox won't be seized. I'd still be paranoid though.... :shrug:
5 Dogs, 2 cats, 2 leopard geckos, 1 guinea pig, 1 axolotl, and a coatimundi currently in my family. :)

Exotic "wishlist": red fox, arctic fox, gray fox, bat eared fox, fennec fox, mink, muntjac deer, owl (any species).
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:12 am

I agree would be paranoid. I think having it in writing for each person who gets one would be fairly good insurance, if from the head of the dept, but not a guarantee. It would make them safe as long as the person who wrote it is in charge, as long as they are in charge. If the next person in charge is a creep though they could say well that last guy was wrong so you gotta get rid of it or even seize them. Now if there's several owners they might be more likely to go middle ground and allow permits for those with letters but since they wont be registered and permitted now they wont know who to notify and you will get some owners missing the deadline to get a permit, there's always a deadline.

Somewhat similar issue in TX it's been said by some that they have once again decided to apply the ban on foxes to only native. What happened is originally someone said they were told they were planning this to start 2015 or 2016 to allow non-native foxes again. Well still nothing in writing from anyone and for sure no official change in the rules. So not even a bit safe to get but people want it to be true.

NC is a bit different since it's several people in charge, but still not a great situation unless official rule change. But if someone decides to get one anyway they should for sure get it in writing. The case law on that is not great though. I know of a case in Canada where after a LONG battle in court they ruled since an official said they could have the fox(official was wrong) that they were not in the wrong and they could get the fox back, if I remember right it was like a couple years battle though. US cases it was more "too bad that guy told you wrong even if it is in writing". Getting it in writing from head of the agency would help, rather than just someone there.

An easy way to fix NC is to add a definition that "wildlife" is native animals only and not those exotic to the state. Then the law that bans wildlife and lists fox wouldn't apply to those non-native species.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Peacefulward » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:21 am

TamanduaGirl wrote:An easy way to fix NC is to add a definition that "wildlife" is native animals only and not those exotic to the state. Then the law that bans wildlife and lists fox wouldn't apply to those non-native species.


Yeah, I'm gonna ask them to define it properly. I actually think they'd be willing to, so far they've been very open with everyone who're talking with them.
5 Dogs, 2 cats, 2 leopard geckos, 1 guinea pig, 1 axolotl, and a coatimundi currently in my family. :)

Exotic "wishlist": red fox, arctic fox, gray fox, bat eared fox, fennec fox, mink, muntjac deer, owl (any species).
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Vata Raven » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:17 am

Peacefulward wrote:Yeah, I'm gonna ask them to define it properly. I actually think they'd be willing to, so far they've been very open with everyone who're talking with them.

...the gaming commission DOES answer all your concerns and questions. If you read anything from their site, you would know the answer; there is no confusion with their wording of the laws.

The answer: No, you can't own foxes (AKA, the wild animal) as a pet, as stated with the Wildlife Captivity License regulation.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Peacefulward » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:38 am

There is confusion with the wording of the laws, that's what this entire discussion is about. The state laws don't define what species of foxes are included, they simply say "foxes" which is a blanket statement that makes people think all foxes are illegal.
But the FAWS states to those who contact them that by "foxes" they are referring to NATIVES ONLY, and that they have no control over non-native species like arctics and fennecs. They have assured me, and multiple other people that they're perfectly legal.
This is where the confusion is coming from, and as I stated before I am working on having everything clarified once and for all, written on paper, and maybe even having the laws edited to describe what they were intending like TamanduaGirl said.

I have read the real state laws. I only linked Born Free because it's the first source that comes up when looking for exotic pet laws, and the NC section isn't outdated... In summary I was being lazy and didn't want to take the time to go find the legitimate source. I think our misunderstanding is coming from there, you don't think I've read them right?

There's no need to get upset. It's not like I'm going to get a fox... I even said above that I wouldn't do that until everything is 100% safe, and actual laws are edited. I wouldn't risk the safety of my potential pet!
5 Dogs, 2 cats, 2 leopard geckos, 1 guinea pig, 1 axolotl, and a coatimundi currently in my family. :)

Exotic "wishlist": red fox, arctic fox, gray fox, bat eared fox, fennec fox, mink, muntjac deer, owl (any species).
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:11 pm

Vata Raven wrote:
Peacefulward wrote:Yeah, I'm gonna ask them to define it properly. I actually think they'd be willing to, so far they've been very open with everyone who're talking with them.

...the gaming commission DOES answer all your concerns and questions. If you read anything from their site, you would know the answer; there is no confusion with their wording of the laws.

The answer: No, you can't own foxes (AKA, the wild animal) as a pet, as stated with the Wildlife Captivity License regulation.


If fox or wildlife has a definition in the codes please point out where. That would be a great help and as I said earlier I found no definition of either.

It's the same problem as TX but happening opposite order(so far). The law doesn't define Foxes in Tx but that's under the furbearer law section so at first in TX they allowed non-native foxes since it obviously was meant to address wild furbearers. Then someone new in charge and they deiced it meant all foxes and started confiscating fennecs! In this case the opposite treating them as illegal till now and now saying they are legal but the pendulum can easily swing the other way with different people in charge. So a law change is needed but with the people in charge saying it's legal a letter might offer some protection but it might not without a fight depending on who is in charge at that point. So I still would advise not doing it but I understand those that do but would say get it in a written letter first. But even so people are going to call and take their word for it not knowing any better.

In this case even just defining wildlife would fix it since it says wildlife can't be owned then lists the type. So if wildlife was defined as native animals only then it would mean native foxes only but it would be ideal to define the species of fox too just for extra insurance. Should not be too big an issue since they are considering changing the law to allow reds anyway they could just change the law to only disallowing gray foxes.
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby Peacefulward » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:56 pm

This is one of the responses.

Image

I don't believe the USDA has any laws in NC about owning foxes either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Fish & Wildlife Services made this legislation:
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Licensing/Other-Licenses-Permits/Wildlife-Importation-Exportation#6666612-permit-restrictions-rules-and-conditions
which is what has led people to believe all foxes regardless of species are illegal, when in reality it only applies to native species.

But despite all this, like TamanduaGirl has been saying, it would still be risky. Did I get all that right? icon_confused.gif
5 Dogs, 2 cats, 2 leopard geckos, 1 guinea pig, 1 axolotl, and a coatimundi currently in my family. :)

Exotic "wishlist": red fox, arctic fox, gray fox, bat eared fox, fennec fox, mink, muntjac deer, owl (any species).
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Re: Non-Native Foxes Legal in NC

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:04 pm

Yep.

She's confused about how USDA works but that's not uncommon.

She said it's in the regulations that they only regulate native wildlife.If you could ask her to point out where that would help. Like I said I didn't find any definition of wildlife being native only but maybe there is something hiding somewhere.

Plus they do regulate some exotic aquatic species: http://reports.oah.state.nc.us/ncac/tit ... 0.0211.pdf

EDIT: of course it's still a bit of an issue even if it says the wildlife commission can't regulate exotics. Obviously the regulations/laws can and do regulate exotics. So the regulations saying fox and not which ones is still an issue even if she can point something like that out. So still need a definition of wildlife meaning native at the least to fix this.

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