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Paradise Wolves breeder?

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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Cindy23323 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:42 pm

MWR_PW wrote:


And how do I misrepresent my female from the Carol King line? Nowhere on my site do I claim content on anything but Sorsha. Tsume and Phantom are mids and Sitka is a lower-mid.

Where on earth are you getting your information from??? I do not claim Sitka is a high. You really need to get your facts straight. And...Kayla isn't a low, sorry to say. You need to study genetics before you claim to know the heritage and content of animals you just see pictures of.



Wrong wrong wrong.
Here's a snap shot i just took of you're devian art page. Right there in you're writing you are calling Sitka a hc

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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:51 pm

Wow the wording on that Deviant Art description is pretty harsh.

Lets keep all post here civil. I mean they've been okay so far. Just being preemptive.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby MWR_PW » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:32 am

"I know the line thats how i know what she is.
Can you honestly tell me now that you have a true high content that you believe you're other animals are the same."


Knowing the line doesn't mean you know the genetics (dominant/recessive genes the line may have). And, again, just because you saw a few pictures of the animals and your buddies told you what they 'know' about her animals doesn't make them low contents.

If you've seen and phenotyped every single one of Carol King's animals IN PERSON (and Carol King confirms that), I would be more apt to believe you. You must have a LOT of trouble reading. Because I've said over and over again that Sorsha is the only one that is high-content (both genetically and phenotypically.) Go back and read again. But this time, slower.




"Just because one animal is a mid in the line does not make its off spring mid, he was bred to a low making the pups lows. Then the pups bred to a mid making them a little higher but beings those were bred to pure sibes it made them really low. Also none of the animals pictured on the site are even related to Rio. Rio is out of Malaky was a VERY LOW CONTENT WD that had a Curly tail, Malamute. And Dawn who was a LOW MID f2. Making Rio a low content f3"



Again, when I get proof back that you have phenotyped all of Carol's animals in person, I might believe you. You're going by what you THINK might look like a low-content because you saw a picture. If you had bothered to read the article I provided, you'd see that there's NO SUCH THING AS 'ABSOLUTE' when it comes to phenotyping. Heck, even AKC breeds, who have been bred for the same phenotyping for decades are often born looking nothing like the breed they're supposed to be. I know you have trouble reading, but PLEASE do yourself a favor and read a few informative articles about genetics before you continue to go on about how you can tell a wolfdog's content just by looking at a picture.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Genetics-of-Dog-Breeding-434
"If dogs evolved from wolves, which seems to be the case, then wolves must have had the capacity for this diversity somewhere in their genomes"


http://www.miniature-schnauzer-australia.com/genetics_of_dog_breeding.html
"A dog's genetic inheritance is therefore not always fully revealed by its appearance (phenotype)!"

Genes are funny things that can manifest itself into anything from behavioral issues to training issues and, yes, even to Phenotyping. As long as there's a mere 2% dog in your wolfdog, those genes can form into any physical dog trait. A mid-content wolfdog is a plethora of wolf and dog genes that can become anything. Ever hear of the Marble Theory? Several excellent breeders use this theory to help determine dog/wolf genes in a litter of pups from parents of different contents--and the marble theory confirms that pups from the same litter can vary in content (particularly mids). I can explain it in more detail or send you a link of someone else explaining it. It might be tough for you to understand it, but I'm sure you'd get the gist of it if you took the time to try and comprehend it.




"I have the emails all saved where you claimed they were vet certified as highs, when you went around threatening people you were going to sue them for writing you were a misrepresenting breeder. Here's a copy of what you personally wrote, so now that you're claiming them something lower and saying you never said that this is more proof of you're lies."



No wonder I didn't remember that---from quite a few years ago, I presume? 2010? 2011? Wrote it to you and your little buddy so you two would stop slandering me on your websites. At least, at the time, it shut you up and got me removed from that BS list you guys had (at least on your website...you two have been very sneaky at slandering me on every dog forum you can find and I'm sure you've emailed many people privately with your defamation).

I claimed her as a HC because, at the time, everyone was yelling at me about phenotyping, so I did the responsible thing and put my guys through the phenotype test. Sitka phenotyped as a high, so that's what I claimed her as. Once I realized the genetic diversity of the pups she throws (after her 2011 litter), I decided to take that into account and did some more figuring. Phenotypically, she looks and acts very wolfy. Genetically speaking, she has one parent who is a dog, and one parent who phenotypes as a mid-lower high content (you may start your temper tantrum now), so even though Sitka looks like a wolf (to those who phenotype correctly by doing it IN PERSON and not by a photo), I learned that Sitka was around the mid-content line. I corrected myself since then (it took me a a year or so to finally realize it, sure, but I made my correction last year. I have no problem admitting when I made a mistake.) The only reason I forgot about that email was because it was YEARS ago.

Nice to know you watch and archive every single thing I do. Did you know that's called stalking? It was annoying at first, but now it's just getting crazy. I was stunned at the astoundingly speedy delivery of the news that I had gotten Sorsha. I sometimes think you people have my phone tapped or something. Aren't you a grown woman, Cindy? Don't you have animals to take care of, a family to feed, a job to work at? Or is it just your life's work to sit at your computer day in and day out just to see and record everything that I'm doing? If I had a nickle of every time I seen you bad-mouthing me on every canine forum on the web, I'd be a very rich gal.




"Wrong wrong wrong.
Here's a snap shot i just took of you're devian art page. Right there in you're writing you are calling Sitka a hc"



Thank you for bringing that to my attention! I edited the description, you may see for yourself. Thank you very much for the correction :) Guess I missed one, but hey, no one is perfect ;)



"Wow the wording on that Deviant Art description is pretty harsh.

Lets keep all post here civil. I mean they've been okay so far. Just being preemptive."



If you've been stalked by crazy people for 6 years who constantly write rude things about your beloved pets everywhere you go, you'd understand my hostility. I can't even join forums to share photos of my babies because of wolfdog phenotyping-loonies who constantly try to convince you that they're such experts, they can tell your animal's entire history just be looking at a photo (they are mostly teenage girls who think they're experts because they read a website). You can only let someone jab you in the back of the head with a stick for so long before you finally turn around and lash out. If you can take that kind of abuse, you're a lot stronger than I am!

I'm keeping things civil, so far. Just trying to defend my good name here ^_^
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Cindy23323 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:46 pm

Right now this definition sums you up, on this forum.
"In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

You got some serious problems, i do not stalk you. I had one email saved from years ago from a friend and I just looked up you're deviant art the same day I posted that post so get over you're self no one wants to stalk you and I dont spend hours at time on the computer. I got to work 9 hrs a day, spend time with my animals, kids and etc. etc. its lucky if i spend a hour on the computer, lol. The only time I ever say anything about you is when someone else brings up you're place asking opinions. Show me when I am the one who started a conversation about you, without someone else talking about you first on a forum, besides the bad breeders list.


The lies about the claiming her as a high to get us to stop. The bs you're making up to cover you're lies is quite hysterical by the way. I hadnt talked to you in years like you said that email was from 2010, yet its funny that pic with you claiming she was a high was posted by you in 2012. You can't seem to get you're lies straight and you're making it worse. How do you figure she phenos as a high. A animal who is going to pheno as a high is going to look high content, even in pictures, and she definately does not by no means. While seeing the animal in person may help a little, its not going to changed the fact by that much. She is no where near a high. And why are you lying about claiming people put you're animals down. No one said they were ugly, called them names or anything, they only stated they were not what you claimed. And that is by no means putting them down.
Oh look i did bring you up on this one, as you see the only thing i did say was is this one of paradise wolves animals. But look, the buyer says you claimed the puppy was a high content, yet according to you, you were only lying to me and a friend about calling them highs. http://www.wolfdogforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=819

And you're the one who knows nothing about genetics or you would know that. Lets say two animals that have 97% wolf blood could throw low content and high content animals. What ever genes they may pick up is going to determine that. So no matter what they maybe on paper, if they pick up all the doggie traits they are going to be considered low content. You obviously did not read that marble theory to correctly because thats what it basically states. That higher percent animals can have highs, mids and lows. You obviously need to re read it.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby wolfmommy55 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:09 pm

Thats it! I can't keep quiet anymore! Cindy, you probably don't remember but you were on my wolf/wolf dog forum years ago (2008ish though you're on so many of them shutting down whoever you can I'm sure I wouldn't stand out). Your hostility and attacking of everyone on the forum caused us to have to shut it down. We were just trying to provide a happy place for people to come together and share out pups. But you had to start spreading lies and attacking everyone about the content of their dogs (none of which were breeders so who the hell cares?) We couldn't keep up with banning you, your alter egos and your brainwashed harpies. It's like you troll every forum that even mentions wold dogs.

I don't even know this poor WD breeder you're attacking, but if you set your sights on her she must be good enough to be threatening to you in some way. As far as I can tell you never got your breeding off the ground. They refuse to produce for you? So she can't possibly competition for you. Anyone that believes a word out of your mouth might as well be trusting a snake in the grass. You talk and act like only your animals or the ones YOU approve of are truly high content. Which is the BIGGEST lie you tell. Then it seems like its all about status with you. HC's are the only ones worth having or acknowledging. Who cares? Let people enjoy their animals rather than constantly putting them down. If you're that worried about something you can't control you need a new hobby.

You're dealing with mixing breeds here. You're never going to have a scientific equation as to what the off spring should "always" be like. (That's your dumbest mistake. All the absolutes you speak. Even pure wolves look different from each other and some, though very very very rare end up with blue or white eyes). The only way to get predictable off spring with mixed breeds is to inbreed your animals. Is that what you advocate for? Because that's disgusting. Though I know a lot of breeders do.

You tried to tell me that my pup didn't have any wolf in him at all. Well, YOU didn't meet his parents. I, however, DID. YOU didn't see him and his coat changing as he grew. I DID. You are a horrible woman with far too much time and hatred on her hands.

Here is something EVERYONE needs to consider when looking for a breeder. Research THE BREED talk to the BREEDER personally, get the info and lineage of their breeders and talk to people WHO ACTUALLY HAVE THEIR PUPS. Asking on an open forum like this only leaves the person open to the small cults of wanna be know it alls with personal vendettas, who are actually uneducated.

It is sad Cindy that you need to put so much energy into your hate. It's like every forum I find, you're already there spreading your lies. Why you've fixated on this poor woman all the way across the country from you is beyond me. If she were really a bad breeder she would have very angry customers who's negative comments about their person experience and that would shut her down for you. But since it doesn't seem to have happened and it sounds like she's been in business for years I'm guessing most if not all of her customers are pretty happy with the babies they get from her. So maybe you need to get a new hobby. Go spend some time with your animals. Go find your zen and get rid of that hate and bitterness you seem so insistant on hanging on to.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Ash » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:16 pm

I personally don't see any lies Cindy is telling, especially with the evidence she is providing (screenshots, etc). People should NOT misrepresent their wolfdogs. Calling someone out for misrepresentation is not lying.

If someone is purposefully misrepresenting--and the evidence provided here points to that--then that is a lie.

I'm just a third party observer, and those are my observations based on the evidence provided.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Cindy23323 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:17 pm

Omg, i have not even been talking about her lately so all of this is lies. If you read this post you would see that I only stated that they are not what she claims basically.
You obviously know them and they got you on here to attack me like she has been doing. "cant keep you're mouth shut anymore" You just got on here like 5 mins ago. you joined here because she asked you too, to fuss at me. Both of you are trolls. I've definately never caused a forum to get shut down, lol. Nor have a clue as to what you're talking about with alter egos. I have never tried to shut anyone down only tried to stop people from getting ripped off like so many bad breeders are doing by claiming they're low content dogs are highs. . Especially the ones who are doing so on purpose. When you can track a line and know the breeders in the line, and the next one who gets the animal suddenly calls it a high when it was a low, then that is straight up ripping someone off.
She was the one who got on here starting the drama. Of course I'm going to come back with something.
You're right they are mixed breeds, but when dealing with content you can tell. If it looks mostly dog its going to be a low, a mid is going to have both traits and highs are going to look mostly wolf. Anyone who knows anything about wds is going to know that unless they are just trying to rip people off by claiming they're something they're not to get more money.
I do not consider my animals the only highs around, there's tons of people with true high contents. But there is also a ton of people with low/no's that are claiming that they're animals are high. There's a big difference.
Here's some links to true highs contents, and this is only a few, notice how these animals look nothing like the ones that are in question that WERE called highs by Michelle
http://www.thewolfcrossing.org/
http://wolfechovalley.tripod.com/index.html
http://www.wcatcr.com/WDmainpage.html
http://www.freewebs.com/winddancerwolves/
http://www.wolves-usa.com/about
http://www.cottonwoodz.com/
http://www.wolfsongkennels.com/html/ouranimals.html
http://www.wolfheart.moonfruit.com/
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Juska » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:12 pm

wolfmommy55 wrote:...you were on my wolf/wolf dog forum years ago (2008ish though you're on so many of them shutting down whoever you can I'm sure I wouldn't stand out). Your hostility and attacking of everyone on the forum caused us to have to shut it down. We couldn't keep up with banning you, your alter egos and your brainwashed harpies. It's like you troll every forum that even mentions wolf dogs.


Not being able to keep up with one "problem" person caused your entire forum to shut down? Wow. You wouldn't believe what we deal with on this site on a day-to-day basis, then. And somehow we keep going and keep almost all of our members. You don't close an entire site because of a single person.

I agree with Ash, I don't see any contradicting evidence provided by either of you to anything Cindy has said. Just hearsay. Which legally is not admissible evidence and is not grounds for libel.

She's been on this site for a very long time, and typically only steps in when someone goes off about wolves or wolfdogs who have no idea what they're talking about. Never has there been a problem with what she's said, to my knowledge. I think maybe it's just you. You're the ones who came on here and suddenly made a stink about something that was said almost three months ago. You could have simply taken it to PM instead of making a scene.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby sarajeku » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:27 pm

Juska wrote:
Not being able to keep up with one "problem" person caused your entire forum to shut down? Wow. You wouldn't believe what we deal with on this site on a day-to-day basis, then. And somehow we keep going and keep almost all of our members. You don't close an entire site because of a single person.

I agree with Ash, I don't see any contradicting evidence provided by either of you to anything Cindy has said. Just hearsay. Which legally is not admissible evidence and is not grounds for libel.

She's been on this site for a very long time, and typically only steps in when someone goes off about wolves or wolfdogs who have no idea what they're talking about. Never has there been a problem with what she's said, to my knowledge. I think maybe it's just you. You're the ones who came on here and suddenly made a stink about something that was said almost three months ago. You could have simply taken it to PM instead of making a scene.


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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby wolfmommy55 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:28 pm

No cindy i dont know her. I know you. And every forum there you are causing the same drama and attacking people. Usually i just leave because you're not worth my time. But jesus its like you're everywhere. Saything the same things on every site. So I'm fed up with you and your elitest ways. Yes you did cause our forum to shut down because despite trying to ban you you came back with different variations of your name our other members would complain and leave eventually leaving us with nothing but you and your harpies and our admins. It was so sad. It was a great non-judgmental community till you showed up.

@ash becareful where your loyalties lie. It is easy to take a screen shot or picture as proof but it is not hard to manipulate pictures in this day and age. So even pictures may not be the proof you think it is. Im not talking about just here. She spread lies else where. Ive just learned after having her on my forum not to trust a word she says. This is more like an overall rant. I dont know this breeder at all. But i do know cindy.

At juska: the reason it was so easy for her to shut us down was because we were small and just starting out. If we had been larger with more members it probably wouldnt have happened. But when she showed up we only had 40-50 members and it didnt take long for her negativity to run almost everyone off. The ones who tried to stay said they were afraid to post for fear of being treated like they were stupid or because they didnt care what content their wolf dog was and didnt want her opinion.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Cindy23323 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:39 pm

wolfmommy55 wrote:No cindy i dont know her. I know you. And every forum there you are causing the same drama and attacking people. Usually i just leave because you're not worth my time. But jesus its like you're everywhere. Saything the same things on every site. So I'm fed up with you and your elitest ways. Yes you did cause our forum to shut down because despite trying to ban you you came back with different variations of your name our other members would complain and leave eventually leaving us with nothing but you and your harpies and our admins. It was so sad. It was a great non-judgmental community till you showed up.

@ash becareful where your loyalties lie. It is easy to take a screen shot or picture as proof but it is not hard to manipulate pictures in this day and age. So even pictures may not be the proof you think it is. Im not talking about just here. She spread lies else where. Ive just learned after having her on my forum not to trust a word she says. This is more like an overall rant. I dont know this breeder at all. But i do know cindy.

At juska: the reason it was so easy for her to shut us down was because we were small and just starting out. If we had been larger with more members it probably wouldnt have happened. But when she showed up we only had 40-50 members and it didnt take long for her negativity to run almost everyone off. The ones who tried to stay said they were afraid to post for fear of being treated like they were stupid or because they didnt care what content their wolf dog was and didnt want her opinion.


Wow you are telling more stories then her now. I have never done such a thing on a forum.

And you sure as heck do not know me.

And the proof speaks for themselves. Michelle even admitted those screenshots were true and that she had said such things so you're the one ranting about nothing about the screen shots.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby sarajeku » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:42 pm

wolfmommy55 wrote:
At juska: the reason it was so easy for her to shut us down was because we were small and just starting out. If we had been larger with more members it probably wouldnt have happened. But when she showed up we only had 40-50 members and it didnt take long for her negativity to run almost everyone off. The ones who tried to stay said they were afraid to post for fear of being treated like they were stupid or because they didnt care what content their wolf dog was and didnt want her opinion.


That's what the banhammer is for. Once someone starts causing THAT MUCH trouble, why wouldn't you just simply ban them? :shrug:
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby Juska » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:43 pm

wolfmommy55 wrote:Saything the same things on every site.


Maybe because it's true?

wolfmommy55 wrote:other members would complain and leave eventually leaving us with nothing but you and your harpies and our admins.


So it wasn't Cindy alone who was "causing problems"? What did you do about those people?

wolfmommy55 wrote:@ash becareful where your loyalties lie. It is easy to take a screen shot or picture as proof but it is not hard to manipulate pictures in this day and age. So even pictures may not be the proof you think it is.

At juska: the reason it was so easy for her to shut us down was because we were small and just starting out. If we had been larger with more members it probably wouldnt have happened. But when she showed up we only had 40-50 members and it didnt take long for her negativity to run almost everyone off. The ones who tried to stay said they were afraid to post for fear of being treated like they were stupid or because they didnt care what content their wolf dog was and didnt want her opinion.


If you don't like the way a site is ran, no one's making you stay.

Also, the email Cindy posted doesn't have error level potential or artifacts. It hasn't been altered in any way, so I don't know why you'd even bring that up, unless you don't understand how image editing works. She posted that email for a reason, and it wasn't to make a false accusation. She's not going out of her way to defame anyone. She's simply telling us what she has come to believe as true, because someone asked, and I haven't seen any evidence against those claims.

And we probably have less than a hundred people on this board who post with any sort of frequency. Our most populous count of people online at once was 281 on February 4th of this year.

And if you truly "don't care" about someone's opinion, you ignore them, not run away in fear. If someone truly is coming onto your site simply to troll people, you don't react to them. It's called not feeding the trolls. That's been around since I was a toddler. I thought it was common knowledge not to react to people who are attempting to antagonize you. Because it only makes things worse.

Speaking of which, there's really nothing left to argue about. I'm done fanning illegitimate flames here.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:56 pm

wolfmommy55 wrote:Usually i just leave because you're not worth my time.


Considering you went out of your way to join a new forum just to post against her I find that kinda hard to believe. You certainly never said Hi or tried to socialize or use the forum at all.
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Re: Paradise Wolves breeder?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:13 am

I really see no point in this thread continuing. All have said their piece. If you care to stick around you guys can just play nice and agree to disagree on the content of your wolfdogs. But there's no point in continuing to toss the same balls back and forth expecting some new result or escalate to personal attacks.

As the thread has become pointless I will close it.

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