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Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

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H20 Sl
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Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby H20 Sl » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:37 pm

I was just curious if they inbreed their raccoons, Aussies, and fox. I'm not implyimg anything, I just wanted to know sence alot of you got your animals from TinyTracks, I was just curious how inbreeding is done to where you can have such a healthy animal. I have my personal opinion about it, as in limitations, but I'm curious, is it bad to inbreed? Can therw be BAD side affects of inbreeding too much? Do you ever breed an inbreed animal? And what members of the family do yiu breed with? Uncle, aunt, cousin? This isn't directed towards TinyTracks, I was just asking if they inbreed.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:20 pm

All you ever wanted to know about inbreeding and lots more than you ever wanted too
https://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Breede ... rlandi.pdf
Edit: opps, that's not the original and is short the original was really long and detailed but can't find it now. Darn doesn't seem to even touch on inbreeding the original does but I'll leave it as understanding genetics is part of it.

Edit 2: Here we got inbreeding chapter well some of it: https://www.facebook.com/radbach.kennel ... 5499031769
Other parts of the book
https://www.facebook.com/radbach.kennel ... 6762365976
https://www.facebook.com/radbach.kennel ... 4675698518
https://www.facebook.com/radbach.kennel ... 5672365085

In short inbreeding can be both good and/or bad. But a little controlled inbreeding(line breeding) can be good, if done right, to help select for the best genes. Total outbreeding basically is like playing Russian roulette, or maybe more like a box of chocolates, you don't know what you'll get since you can't see what bad genes are hiding there waiting to double up.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby DeweysMom » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:26 pm

I have no knowledge about your question about Tiny Tracks per se, but the proper terminology is "line breeding".

Potay-toes, potah-toes - yeah, inbreeding / line breeding - it's the same thing. But breeders want you to think that they're improving the species by selecting the 'perfect' matings, but in the end, it's still inbreeding and has as much of a chance to cause health/behaviour issues in offspring as it does ending up with the 'perfect' specimen.
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2 Dogs - a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, & an Australian Shepherd; 3 Cats; 2 horses, 1 mule; One very spoiled raccoon and the love of my life, Dewey James, and the recently added but much adored, Bobby Lee, brother raccoon to Dewey
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby H20 Sl » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:41 am

Oops, didn't know it was called line breeding, but honestly, this is really cool. I love looking at genes and stuff like this. Sorry it was a weird question, but it was a nagging question.. Thank you, very informational link.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby DeweysMom » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:03 pm

As TG pointed out, line breeding can be a good thing - if done properly and not in excess. However, I've seen so many health issues arise because of it in the horse industry and also in dogs that it has really turned me off from the whole idea. But yeah, if utilized wisely and sparingly, it can be a good thing.
Dana

2 Dogs - a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, & an Australian Shepherd; 3 Cats; 2 horses, 1 mule; One very spoiled raccoon and the love of my life, Dewey James, and the recently added but much adored, Bobby Lee, brother raccoon to Dewey
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby Ash » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:42 pm

Well, lab mice are all basically perfect clones of each other, are perfectly healthy, etc, through line-breeding. That's what we are trying to achieve with dog breeds and horse breeds--a standard that is healthy and identical.

Line breeding can DEFINITELY be a great thing when done correctly. It lets you weed out bad genes quickly, as well as keep all the good genes. Line-breeding in excess is not bad. You can line breed in excess as much as you want as long as you are doing it properly and still weeding out all the bad stuff and keeping the good stuff. Doing it in excess actually helps achieve a healthier result in the end and a more perfect specimen.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby Ash » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:47 pm

It's quicker to achieve in lab mice and rabbits since they breed like crazy and you can go through litters super fast. It takes a lot longer with dogs and horses since they have offspring one/year generally.

The real problem with dog and horse breeding is not inbreeding. It's the bad breeders who have not selected healthy pairs, and are not keeping close enough eyes on their line (whether the babies turn out healthy, whether the grandbabies turn out healthy). They don't find the problems, and they don't weed out the problems.

Good breeders do that. Problem is, it takes a while, so in the meantime you have all the "bad" breeders making tons of puppies that still carry bad genes, while the good breeders are working a lot more slowly and carefully.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:13 pm

Exactly, Ash. One of the links mentions a line of lab rats done the same way. All identical from inbreeding/line-breeding so much but all healthy.

Another thing to note is inbreeding is actually natural to some extent. Wild animals usually don't disperse far and often over lap family territories and will breed with relatives. But instead of human selection natural selection does the job instead. So if bad genes double the weakness is identified and culled by their not surviving and that line will die out but if good genes double the offspring thrive and go on to breed themselves. Humans line breeding does the same but less messily, when done right, so that in the end you can weed out all the bad genes and double up on all the good ones.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby Ana » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:33 pm

I'd be interested to know the frequency of mutations, retardation and deformity that occur using these methods 'properly', and
what the outcome is for individuals who are born in deformed states, or states that do not reveal the extent of their disability immediately.

Are instances of undesired mutation, retardation and deformity greater than that of a diverse breeding population?
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby caninesrock » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:55 pm

Admittedly, I don't know about breeding animals that much. It might not be bad if you don't do it that much. But if you do it all the time, I think it would be bad. Not animals, but there was a royal family called the Hadsburgs that was so obsessed with preserving their bloodline that they only ever married to blood relatives and as a result, each generation had more and more health disorders and birth defects and eventually the family went extinct.

Here's some links about that royal family and some others in the first link (Originally had quotes in the post, but do to the controversial nature decided to just link instead. So, yeah, fair warning that these links deal with incest):
http://www.splatter.com/ink/are-cersei- ... ght-be-yes

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -of-kings/

http://ontd-political.livejournal.com/2880888.html

About humans, but I assume the same would be true for animals.

As for Tiny Tracks, I have no idea about them or any other animal breeder and what they do or don't do. I only hope that not too many breeders "line-breed" or atleast if they do, that they don't breed anything as close as a mother-son or father-daughter, but maybe, if they absolutely must line-breed than something a little more distantly related like whatever the second or third cousin equivalent of animals would be.

Maybe its a personal choice, but if I ever started breeding animals, I would only ever breed unrelated ones to each other. No animal incest for my animals, unless it was an accidental/oops litter, which I'd hopefully be able to prevent before it happened.
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Re: Does TinyTracks Inbreed? Is inbreeding bad? What side affect does it have?

Postby Ash » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:23 pm

Ana wrote:I'd be interested to know the frequency of mutations, retardation and deformity that occur using these methods 'properly', and
what the outcome is for individuals who are born in deformed states, or states that do not reveal the extent of their disability immediately.

Are instances of undesired mutation, retardation and deformity greater than that of a diverse breeding population?


Not if bred correctly. With correct inbreeding, you will be able to get rid of those types of things early on. Deformities can and will still occur in diverse populations as well.

Going back to the lab mice: no problems in them whatsoever. Deformities, retardation, mutations, etc are not popping up any higher in those populations otherwise they would not be good test subjects. It would completely ruin research if they were that varied. I think in their case those deformities would be more likely to occur in an unrelated mouse.
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