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Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Canines not listed on other forums: African Wild Dogs, Coyotes, Dingoes, Jackals, New Guinea Singing Dogs, Raccoon DOGS, ETC..

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Nìmwey
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Nìmwey » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:08 am

One acre is really tiny, you can barely homestead on it, let alone build a zoo.

Image

One hectare for comparison, is about 2.5 acres. (One acre = 4046 sqm, one hectare = 10000 sqm.)

Image

You definitely need many acres to house more than a couple of species.
My main interest is in parrots, dogs, toothed whales and snakes.
Future animals I want to have when we have land are camels, wolfdogs/wolves, coyotes or jackals, striped hyena or aardwolf. Also poultry, rabbits water buffalo and/or yak for livestock.
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caninesrock
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:49 pm

Thanks, Nimwey, for the info about acres. I looked into it and found some sites with recommendations on how many acres needed to house a wolf or wolfdog. Most seem to agree that atleast a quarter acre is needed, but that between 1 to 2 acres plus an additional half acre per wolf/ wolfdog is preferred if you have more than one.

A single wild wolf’s territory is about 10,000 acres. According to a study done at Mission:Wolf in 1999, captive wolves and wolf-dogs require at least 1 acre of enclosure space (200’ x 200’). When housing multiple animals together, a bare minimum of ½ an acre is needed per animal to minimize aggression toward each other (i.e. 3 animals = 1 ½ acres, 4 animals = 2 acres).

From: http://www.graywolfconservation.com/Wol ... ations.htm


Enclosures should be a minimum of a quarter acre (100' x 100'); two acres (200' x 400') is preferable.

From: http://www.inetdesign.com/wolfdunn/cont ... large.html

ENCLOSURES:
AREA: A single wild wolf's territory is about 10,000 acres. Captive wolves need at least a fourth of an acre (100' x 100'). Enclosures should be enlarged an additional quarter acre for each added animal.

From: http://www.missionwolf.org/page/wolf-dog-help/


So, sounds like a quarter acre is the minimum recommended per animal, but if having two animals, then that would be another quarter added, so about half an acre per enclosure minimum. But a more ideal size would be around 1 acre per enclosure if each enclosure included only 2 wolves.

I haven't yet figured out the requirements for foxes, coyotes, or jackals, though, but maybe to be on the safe side, I should just assume one acre per exhibit?
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:22 pm

So, I downgraded my zoo even more. I would like to have the zoo ideally be a place I could run mostly by myself with not many other staff members, so I limited it down alot.


This is my current plans:
1. 2 Gray Wolves(I would have one gray colored one and one black colored one.)-1 arce
2. 2 Arctic Wolves (Technically a subspecies of Gray Wolf, but would have them as well because of their white coat color.)-1 arce
3. 2 African Golden Wolves- 1 acre
4. 2 Coyotes-1 acre
5. 2 Eastern Coyotes/Coywolves-1 acre
6. 2 Golden Jackals-1 acre
7. 2 Dingoes-1 acre
8. 2 New Guinea Singing Dog-1 acre
9. 2 Low to Lower-mid Content Wolfdogs-1 acre
10. 2 Coydogs-1 acre
11. Jackal-Dogs-1 acre
12. 4 Red Foxes (Burgundy/Cinnamon, Platinum Pearl, Arctic Marble, and Classic Red)- 2 acres


So, a total of 13 acres just for the zoo animals.

Then, I would also have the following non-zoo animals that would need enclosures:
2 Coatimundi

2 Kinkajous

2 Raccoons

And I need space for 2 donkeys and 2 mules to run around in.

I'd possibly also have a Marten and Mink, but I'm not sure if they would need outdoor enclosures or not or if they could have the same kind of cage set-up that a ferret has. The mink, I would give a little mini swimming pool too though.

If I gave 1 acre of space each to my Coatimundis, Raccoons, and Kinkajous, that would be 3 more acres, which would be a total of 16 acres.

I'm hoping the mink and marten can be house pets, but even if they do need enclosures, since they are such small animals, I doubt they'd need a whole acre. I'm sure how big their enclosure would need to be though. I also briefly thought about having a polecat, but since they are pretty much just the wild form of a ferret and look almost identical and I plan on having ferrets anyway, I decided against it.

I found something saying that you need 3 acres of land for a donkey and 1 acre per additional donkey, so that would mean 4 acres for the donkeys.

I assume mules would be similiar, so would need 4 more acres.


So, that would be a total of 8 more acres, which would mean a total of 24 acres just for the animals.

I'd also want a few domestic dogs and they'd need a fenced in yard. However, my dogs would be mostly indoor dogs and would only go outside to play a few times a day and of course, out when they had to use the bathroom.

Now that I think about it though, I would really love to live on the same property my zoo is on, but would that mean that I have to get my pets, including my domestic dogs, covered by insurance in case the public interacted with them? I don't plan to let any of the public see or interact with my dogs or other privately owned exotics or domestics, most of which would be indoor pets anyway, except for the coatimundis, raccoons, kinkajous, mules, and donkeys, and the dogs which would occassionally be let out to play in a fenced in yard, but if somehow the animals got out or someone in the public went snooping where they weren't supposed to be and as a result , they interacted with my pets, I wonder if that would require insurance?

Also, if I was USDA, would that mean that I would have to keep every animal on the property in USDA required enclosures, even if they weren't actually part of my zoo, like my future pet sugar gliders, hedgehogs, prairie dogs, minks, martens, kinkajous, coatimundis, and raccoons? I can't imagine domestic animals like my future dogs, ferrets, donkeys, and mules would be affected by USDA regulations, but I don't know for sure.

I'd probably build a privacy fence around my house and yard and have a sign saying "Private" or something along those lines to separate it off from the zoo part of the property.

As far as acres go, even though dogs don't need an acre for land, I'd probably just get one more acre and make it an even 25 acres and have a fenced in one acre yard for my dogs to run around in.

I also looked up farm acreage and most farms are over 100 acres, but they also have alot of grazing animals that need alot of fresh grass and stuff, so I don't think I'd need that much.

Also, I saw a documentary about a wildlife rescue center and it said it was 325 acres, but it also had things like big cats and bears, which I'm sure need alot more space than even wolves and I think it had a lot more animals than I'm planning on having as well, but unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the sanctuary/ rescue, so I don't know for sure.

I'm thinking maybe anywhere between 40-50 acres. 25 acres would be devoted to the animals (pet domestics, pet exotics, and zoo/'facility animals) and then however many remaining acres would be devoted to any other attractions, facilities, or buildings my zoo needed, and the last of the space would be left for my private house.

Do you guys think 40-50 acres would be good for my plans or should I go bigger?
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby TamanduaGirl » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:24 pm

Glad you addressed acreage for people at the end because at the very least you'd need to bump in some for pathways to go see the animals and a bathroom as you legally need that too.

Insurance will need to cover everything on grounds but should anyway by default.

USDA officially all animals at the facility must be covered by the license BUT it will depend on your inspector. Mine chooses just to count the exotics since I don't use the domestics in shows so yours might consider the house pets seperate if that area is fenced off and they aren't used, but they could also count them since on the property..
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Juska » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:44 am

You know, for fun, you could start planning this out in a more tangible way by building it in Zoo Tycoon, or Zoo Tycoon 2 if you want more realistic/modded graphics and interactivity. It's all grid-based so you could do some rough scaling and planning on the sizes of enclosures, pathways, etc.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:50 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Glad you addressed acreage for people at the end because at the very least you'd need to bump in some for pathways to go see the animals and a bathroom as you legally need that too.

Insurance will need to cover everything on grounds but should anyway by default.

USDA officially all animals at the facility must be covered by the license BUT it will depend on your inspector. Mine chooses just to count the exotics since I don't use the domestics in shows so yours might consider the house pets seperate if that area is fenced off and they aren't used, but they could also count them since on the property..

Well, I need acres for the paths which I didn't think of so thanks for reminding me of that and the bathrooms. Also, I would need acres fro my educational shows for stage and seating, my museum of extinct and prehistoric canine replicas, "movie theater" (really just a room with a big tv that plays canine-themed documentaries), library/research center, carousel, and educational fairgrounds games. Also, possibly some acreage for the care/handling classes.

I am thinking all of that could probably fit in one building though, so: 1 room for educational shows, 1 room for the museum, 1 room for movie theater, 1 room for library, and 1 room for the care/handling classes. So, that would be a five room building. I haven't decided yet on if the carousel and fairgrounds games would be indoors or outdoors. Maybe they could be both in the same room in the building and it would be a 6 room building. I know that the mall here has an indoor carousel, so if small enough, it is possible to have one indoors. Oh, the bathrooms and a food place would also be in this same building too, so I guess that would make it have to be an 8 room building.

So, probably the only outdoor part would be the actual exhibits with the canines.

Thanks for the info on insurance and I guess I'll have to ask my inspector to see what they say about it when I get one. I will try to keep fenced off so hopefully that will help my private animals to not be counted. If needed, I might even try to have 1-2 unused acres as a buffer zone between my private property and the actual zoo part as a double protection.
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:53 pm

Juska wrote:You know, for fun, you could start planning this out in a more tangible way by building it in Zoo Tycoon, or Zoo Tycoon 2 if you want more realistic/modded graphics and interactivity. It's all grid-based so you could do some rough scaling and planning on the sizes of enclosures, pathways, etc.

I play Zoo Tycoon 2 all the time, but I didn't know you could do measurements on it. All I see is that you can choose large, medium, or small zoo types. I don't see anything about how to see how many acres or anything that it equates to.

Actually, that gives me an idea. You know those house planning/designing softwares, well they should make one like for planning zoos/wildlife parks. :lol:

I would so use that.
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Juska » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:38 pm

Well the first one is based on an isometric grid, so if you applied a scale to it you could roughly base it off that. Lengths of fence needed, acreage, etc. It's not perfect but it's a start.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Nìmwey » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:08 pm

In Zoo Tycoon 2, I'd say one square is two meters in every direction. (7 feet is 2.1 meters for reference.)

The largest zoo in ZT2 is 92x92 squares, so 184x184 meters = 33 856 sqm, or (since the entrance takes some space) 8.36 acres. :D So it's pretty damn small, but good for getting an idea of things.

How do you plan on feeding all these doggies by the way? (Maybe I've missed it.)

I plan on doing something much smaller, either private or a small "center" with just 5-8 dogs (companionship, guarding the property, and a couple of rescues under rehabilitation at any given time), a couple of wolves/wolfdogs, maybe a lynx or bear if I ever got the chance and ability to (plus lots of non-carnivores, but that's irrelevant now).
Since I'm going mostly off-grid homesteading, I will be breeding rabbits and chickens for food both for myself, but mainly for the animals. I'm pretty sure that will be cheaper than buying meat for them, especially if you have many.

And that's of course if you can handle the killing-part, which I was sure I wouldn't, but watching some very un-traumatic videos on how to do it on YouTube turned me around. :) If you can't, you can always get someone who can to do the deed for you.

There is indeed a "sanctuary" (I'm always hesitant to call anything that, because so many of them are hypocritical scams) that has a ridiculously huge area - 720 acres, with over 350 animals. http://www.wildanimalsanctuary.org/ But the animals are rotated and don't get to spend time in the huge enclosures they brag about, all the time.
My main interest is in parrots, dogs, toothed whales and snakes.
Future animals I want to have when we have land are camels, wolfdogs/wolves, coyotes or jackals, striped hyena or aardwolf. Also poultry, rabbits water buffalo and/or yak for livestock.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:21 pm

Wow. Only 8 acres? That explains why even the large zoo in Zoo Tycoon 2 isn't big enough for me. I like to give the animals large enclosures, especially since I usually like to make all canine or canine and hyena zoos in the game. Lol. XD Anyways, I usually only can fit about 6 or 7 species in my zoos with the size I make my enclosures, so that seems about right in the fact that recommended enclosure size for 2 canids is 1 acre in real-life.

Nah, you didn't miss it. I haven't said how yet. I have given some thought to it though. Theoretically, it would be nice to give them a completely raw meat diet, but I'm sure I wouldn't have the money for it. So, their meals would be mainly an extremely high-quality, high-protein kibble like Blue Wilderness (though this is only 36% protein since a dry kibble) or a commercial raw dog food like Nature's Valley Raw Instincts(an impressive 45% protein and the food I'm most considering right now, since its nearly 50% meat-based), or Mazuri Canid Food (which is what AZA zoos feed their canids, but you can't find it in pet stores like the other two food types, so would probably have to order online) . Of course, even the best high-in protein dog foods are only around 50% protein, so the food would be supplemented with bits of beef liver, tripe (cow stomach), chitlins (pig intestines), and giblets (a mix of the heart, liver, gizzard, and other organs from chickens), all of which can be bought from a grocery store, mixed into the kibble. I would also include raw meat from the grocery store or perhaps slightly cooked, just to the point where its rare, just to be safe, as well as raw or again, slightly cooked whole fish. The meat and fish would be like a twice a week thing though while what they would be fed every day would be the high-protein kibble, commercial raw, or Mazuri zoo food mixed with bits of liver, tripe, chitlins, and giblets, which might also be just slightly cooked, just to be safe. For the small canids ,like the coyotes and foxes, I may also consider feeding them the frozen feeder mice and rats that are usually sold in many pet stores to be feed to reptiles.One brands is Arctic Mice. This is because foxes and coyotes often eat rodents in the wild. The larger canids like the wolves may occassionally also get a whole rat or mouse as a treat, but probably wouldn't be part of their everyday diet since the mostly eat large animals in the wild. Speaking of, another thing to consider would be some venison from an exotic meat store as an occasional diet supplement.

That sounds really cool. Glad to see I'm not the only one who has this sort of idea. :D

As for breeding and killing my own animals for feed, I think I'd have a problem with getting attached them and wanting to keep them as pets.

That might of been the sanctuary that the documentary was talking about. Maybe the 350 I remembered was the amount of animals they said and not the amount of acres.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Ash » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:03 pm

You would certainly need a lot of land. I know the wolves will need huge enclosures. I think Cindy recommends 50'x50' for a couple wolves? Though I may have that wrong. 35 acres is a lot of land to maintain, but in the enclosures the animals would keep the weeds tramped down, so you would mostly have to focus on all the land in between the enclosures as far as property maintenance goes. Of course you'd have to be sure the enclosures were being maintained properly. My foxes, funny enough, get rid of all the weeds in their enclosure but let all the wild alfalfa grow up through the chain links below. I have to run, but I'll come back to your topic soon.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Ash » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:04 pm

I don't think you would need nearly as many acres as you think for the actual zoo part. You can have a lot of enclosures in a small area and still have them big and spacious.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:03 pm

So, as far as enclosure size, I was looking on the Florida exotic laws requirements for space and I found this for wild canids:

(h) Wild Canids.

In addition to the requirements of this section, each cage or enclosure shall be equipped with a shelter(s)/ den(s) that shall accommodate all the animals in the enclosure simultaneously. Each enclosure shall have an accessible device to provide physical stimulation or manipulation compatible with the species. Such device shall be noninjurious, and may include, but is not limited to boxes, balls, bones, barrels, drums, rawhide, pools, etc.

1. Foxes, small (e.g., Fennec, kit)

a. For one or two animals, a cage 6 feet by 4 feet, 4 feet high. For each additional animal, increase cage size by 25 percent of original floor area.

b. Each cage shall have an elevated platform(s) that shall accommodate all animals in the enclosure simultaneously.

2. Foxes (e.g., red, grey, Arctic, bat eared, bush dogs)

a. For one or two animals, a cage 8 feet by 6 feet, 6 feet high. For each additional animal, increase cage size by 25 percent of original floor area.

b. Each cage shall have an elevated platform(s) that shall accommodate all animals in the enclosure simultaneously.

3. Wolves (e.g., gray wolf, except red wolf, maned wolf, hyenas, African wild dogs, Cape hunting dogs)

a. For one or two animals, a cage 20 feet by 10 feet, 6 feet high. For each additional animal, increase cage size by 25 percent of original floor area.

b. Each cage shall have an elevated platform(s) that shall accommodate all animals in the enclosure simultaneously.

c. Outdoor cages over 1,000 square feet (uncovered) shall have vertical jump walls at least 8 feet high, with a 45 degree inward angle overhang 2 feet wide or, jump walls 10 feet high without an overhang.

4. Coyotes, jackals, Asian wild dogs, red wolf, dingoes.

a. For one or two animals, a cage 20 feet by 8 feet, 6 feet high. For each additional animal, increase cage size by 25 percent of original floor area.

b. Each cage shall have an elevated platform(s) that shall accommodate all animals in the enclosure simultaneously.

c. Outdoor cages over 1,000 square feet (uncovered) shall have vertical jump walls at least 8 feet high with a 45 degree, inward angle overhang 2 feet wide or, jump walls 10 feet high without an overhang.

Source: https://www.animallaw.info/administrati ... se-captive

Not sure how any of that would convert into acres though and honestly, 20 x 10 feet sounds kind of small to me for one wolf, let alone two? :shrug:
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby Ash » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:11 pm

Keep in mind, those are in the minimums. Definitely too small for a wolf though.
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Re: Canid Zoo Idea 2.0

Postby caninesrock » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:56 pm

I thought so. I have to wonder who made those guidelines that they think they are even close enough to being big enough for any large canid.
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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