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Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Canines not listed on other forums: African Wild Dogs, Coyotes, Dingoes, Jackals, New Guinea Singing Dogs, Raccoon DOGS, ETC..

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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:29 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:I'd still suggest at least calling her a hybrid. I lived in Ca for awhile and they confiscated lots of animals people claim they can keep even though the law says not to. In one case they confiscated a guys wolfdogs even though they are legal because the state claimed they were pures and the owner and breeder were both lying then they couldn't find a sanctuary for them so they were killed.

I would lean towards her being pure after seeing the video of her. Most coydogs seem to inherit a high amount of dog features.


I would just move out of the state at that point and take her and my cattle dog with me. As long as they give you a choice to move out or get the animal taken away I should be fine. Did they just show up at the door of this person and take the animals or did they call or write a letter first? I am always cautious about who I talk to and sometimes I just say that I got her at the pound and I don't know what she is. The guy who tried to get into a fight with me about it heard that she was a coyote from someone else and I can't control that since the people at the park informed me that she was a coyote to begin with.

It's hard for people to imagine a black coyote that is not mixed with dog being adopted from the pound but this seems to be the case. I have read of this happening one other time since they often get confused for shepherds when they are young. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. The video is very useful in showing what she was like because she's no longer that way and people who had not seen her when I first got her don't believe that she was wild. The one true coydog that I've seen was at the dog park and it looked like a whippet mix but upon closer inspection with the help of the owner it became obvious that his dog was a coyote mixed with a dog that had short fur and a brindle coat. His dog did seem slightly different but I would not have been able to tell without his help since it took on so many of the traits of the dog parent. Also, any idea of how old Acacia really was when I got her?
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby sarajeku » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:27 pm

Here is Totem at 5 and 6 months.
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I'm still leaning a bit more toward coydog.
As with any crossing, it's a gamble, which traits you get. For the most part, TG is right. You don't really see that many coydogs that look very "coyote-ish", however, there have been coydogs that look almost full coyote, but with some dog traits. This is one of my favorite examples:
Image


One thing to note with melanistic coyotes, is that despite being all black, the color would still be grizzled and each hair would still be banded. A coydog would likely have flat black with just a small amount of variation in color, and the hairs may or may not be banded. (This is what I mean by banded: [link] [link]) Where each hair strand has more than one color or shade. So you would still be able to tell there is a V cape. Also, even though the dark coloration hides some of her facial features, you can still tell she has a stop. A coyote has a more wedge shaped face, almost "collie-like", in that they have nearly no stop. The ears would be set more to the side of the head (see the second picture in this post) as well.
This is a full melanistic coyote.
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The V-cape and stop can be seen on Totem here:
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:13 pm

Her fur does look to have that wild banding in the video, where the fur parts like on the hips it is lighter underneath.

I see what you mean on the face but many Western Coyotes do have faces shaped that way.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:25 pm

For comparison

Brandy(she says the muzzle is thinner now that she's older)
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Some not wedged Western Coyotes
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The snow kind of makes this one look more wedge that he is
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:12 am

sarajeku wrote:Here is Totem at 5 and 6 months.

I'm still leaning a bit more toward coydog.
As with any crossing, it's a gamble, which traits you get. For the most part, TG is right. You don't really see that many coydogs that look very "coyote-ish", however, there have been coydogs that look almost full coyote, but with some dog traits. This is one of my favorite examples: http://science-research-canid.itgo.com/coydog2.jpg


One thing to note with melanistic coyotes, is that despite being all black, the color would still be grizzled and each hair would still be banded. A coydog would likely have flat black with just a small amount of variation in color, and the hairs may or may not be banded. (This is what I mean by banded: [link] [link]) Where each hair strand has more than one color or shade. So you would still be able to tell there is a V cape. Also, even though the dark coloration hides some of her facial features, you can still tell she has a stop. A coyote has a more wedge shaped face, almost "collie-like", in that they have nearly no stop. The ears would be set more to the side of the head (see the second picture in this post) as well.
This is a full melanistic coyote.

The V-cape and stop can be seen on Totem here:


Thank you for the younger pictures of Totem. It appears that his muzzle has grown out as well. I don't know what a stop is but since there are 19 different variations of coyote and individuals tend to differ slightly amongst themselves I think that it is quite reasonable for her have what appears to be a shorter muzzle. However, when one looks at a purely melansitic coyote like the ones that I am linking to below and putting pictures of then you can see that a similar effect occurs in which their muzzles appear shorter and their ears appear to be closer together. These three melanistic coyotes look exactly the same as Acacia and resemble her much more because they are darker than the one you linked to. I think the black causes our eyes to play tricks on us but I could be wrong.

I have seen the picture of this particular melanistic coyote before and it's not the best comparison because the coat isn't as dark. The reason why its ears appear to be wider apart is because it's holding them back. When Acacia holds here ears back she looks the same. Also, her fur isn't banded like those in your links. Instead she has a pure white undercoat with white roots that go up into every hair. If you were to trim her coat to just above the roots she would be pure white.

http://www.wildflorida.com/index.php
http://zhon.deviantart.com/art/Grimm-th ... -181198117

TamanduaGirl wrote:Her fur does look to have that wild banding in the video, where the fur parts like on the hips it is lighter underneath.

I see what you mean on the face but many Western Coyotes do have faces shaped that way.


Thank you for supporting my case TamanduaGirl. :thank:


TamanduaGirl wrote:For comparison

Brandy(she says the muzzle is thinner now that she's older)

Some not wedged Western Coyotes

The snow kind of makes this one look more wedge that he is


Maybe the pictures below will help sort this out. Those melanistic coyotes have the same ear and muzzle structure as that of Acacia. The lighter coyotes that you've linked to also have similar features to that of Acacia so it might just be the subspecies difference. My girlfriend does think that Acacia isn't a pure coyote solely because of her muzzle so sarajeku isn't alone on that. What do you guys think in light of some of the evidence presented here? I guess I should have made a separate thread for this so I apologize for the hijack. I also appreciate everybody's input.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby sarajeku » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:44 am

Instead she has a pure white undercoat with white roots that go up into every hair. If you were to trim her coat to just above the roots she would be pure white.

That isn't banding. Wild banding should have three or more shades or colors on a hair shaft. It's my understanding that it's fairly common for a dog's undercoat to be lighter than the guard hairs, which is why, with banding, you need 3 or more shades.

Coyote coats look VERY different between winter and summer.
Those that you posted were summer coats. The one I posted was in its winter coat. Totem has much more prominent banding in the winter than he does in the summer.

This is Totem in his winter coat.
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And this is him in the summer
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:09 am

sarajeku wrote:
Instead she has a pure white undercoat with white roots that go up into every hair. If you were to trim her coat to just above the roots she would be pure white.

That isn't banding. Wild banding should have three or more shades or colors on a hair shaft. It's my understanding that it's fairly common for a dog's undercoat to be lighter than the guard hairs, which is why, with banding, you need 3 or more shades.

Coyote coats look VERY different between winter and summer.
Those that you posted were summer coats. The one I posted was in its winter coat. Totem has much more prominent banding in the winter than he does in the summer.

This is Totem in his winter coat.
And this is him in the summer


Thanks for more pictures of Totem and for explaining banding to me. Acacia's coat does change and you can see her summer coat on my last post and her winter coat in my avatar picture. When I first got her she was so puffy and large chunks of white fur were coming off but the pieces were interwoven like cotton. The reason why I posted coyotes with summer coats was because those were the only pictures that I could find that matched Acacia's color. The first picture is of Acacia though so I hope that you didn't think that they were all of random coyotes. I was hoping that the first picture that I posted would give everyone a better idea of what she looks like although it was taken over two months ago.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby sarajeku » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:55 am

ucrjedi wrote: The reason why I posted coyotes with summer coats was because those were the only pictures that I could find that matched Acacia's color. The first picture is of Acacia though so I hope that you didn't think that they were all of random coyotes.

I had a feeling that was why you picked those photos, and I knew that was Acacia as well (the file name gave it away).
My point with winter coat vs summer coat however wasn't trying to prove you wrong and say "OMG your dog doesn't look like a coyote at all!!" It was that because coyotes change SO much from summer to winter, that the same coyote could look like one of those you posted in the summer, and still look like the one I posted in the winter. I have a habit of not exactly getting the point across that I'm trying to, so if I'm not being clear or if I'm being confusing, just say so.

I'm also not trying to say Acacia doesn't look at all like a coyote. Quite the opposite. That was the point of my post with the bi-eyed coydog.
She does look very much like a coyote, but there are some very subtle things that, without actually meeting her, I personally feel still look slightly dog-like.

And like TG said, that could work in your favor if a neighbor or stranger ever complains about that "wild animal that there person is walking!" "It's a DANGER TO MY KIDS!!!" "What about MY pets!! It'll eat my cat!"
There are a plethora of things that the public could do or say if you call her a coyote over a hybrid. Even if you don't publicly announce that she is a coyote, someone might just call animal control or whatever authority they can because she looks like one.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:03 am

Yep much safer to say a hybrid and if that photo, being recent, is of her fully adult then I'd revise to say coydog maybe too. Like the ears still aren't fully up there, I suppose could have been due to a deficiency early on though but the black really does throw things off.

PS the stop, since it wasn't clarified, is basically where the muzzled ends and there is a sharp upward slant before the actual head/skill.

And speaking of coys with stops this just popped up on FB
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It's a pretty funny series of photos actually
www.discoverwildlife.com/gallery/otter- ... -max-waugh

Coyote hair, it doesn't really show the roots though.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:37 am

sarajeku wrote:
ucrjedi wrote: The reason why I posted coyotes with summer coats was because those were the only pictures that I could find that matched Acacia's color. The first picture is of Acacia though so I hope that you didn't think that they were all of random coyotes.

I had a feeling that was why you picked those photos, and I knew that was Acacia as well (the file name gave it away).
My point with winter coat vs summer coat however wasn't trying to prove you wrong and say "OMG your dog doesn't look like a coyote at all!!" It was that because coyotes change SO much from summer to winter, that the same coyote could look like one of those you posted in the summer, and still look like the one I posted in the winter. I have a habit of not exactly getting the point across that I'm trying to, so if I'm not being clear or if I'm being confusing, just say so.

I'm also not trying to say Acacia doesn't look at all like a coyote. Quite the opposite. That was the point of my post with the bi-eyed coydog.
She does look very much like a coyote, but there are some very subtle things that, without actually meeting her, I personally feel still look slightly dog-like.

And like TG said, that could work in your favor if a neighbor or stranger ever complains about that "wild animal that there person is walking!" "It's a DANGER TO MY KIDS!!!" "What about MY pets!! It'll eat my cat!"
There are a plethora of things that the public could do or say if you call her a coyote over a hybrid. Even if you don't publicly announce that she is a coyote, someone might just call animal control or whatever authority they can because she looks like one.


Yeah, I know that their appearance changes a lot depending on the season. I got Acacia when she had a thick winter coat then she shed it and now has another winter coat but it's not as thick as the first years coat although there is still time. Everything about Acacia screams coyote to me except her muzzle which appears to be too short but the pictures above show that such a muzzle can exist with wild coyotes therefore I am just tossing it up to being a subspecies difference.

I guess aside from looking like a coyote an animal would need to act like one as well and in that way I have no doubt that she is one. At the very least she was wild when I got her. Even little clues give it away. When I first got her she was nauseous and would throw up when going on rides and this lasted for over two months. Yesterday I gave her milk and for 10 seconds she couldn't figure out what it was and didn't like the taste of it at first. Her behavior is so unlike that of any dog that based on that alone I should have guessed that she was a coyote. In the video you saw a note at the end said that she sat in the back corner of her pound cage day and night and I saw this first hand. One would think that after 7 weeks at the shelter she would at least come to the front of her very large cage but it never happened. Furthermore, when she came into the shelter she weighed 35lbs and when she left she was 30lbs indicating that she was doing quite well for herself before she was caught but since she was totally scared of people it means that she was doing well in the wild. Lastly, when I first looked at her in the shelter I got the feeling that she wasn't a dog but I couldn't explain it. She just gives off a sense of wild that you don't get from other dogs even if she is just looking at you.

It certainly is to my benefit that she has black fur and a white spot on her chest which makes her look doglike. At the same time her behavior even today isn't doglike unless she is alone with me or my cattle dog. I do have a cat as well so nobody could argue that she eats cats because mine often sits with her on the couch. I don't plan on telling random people that she is a coyote unless they figure it out for themselves and even then I am just guessing. Whatever consensus is reached here it won't affect how a stranger views her.

I know it was risky for me to post anything about her on this site and especially to put up pictures but I need to be part of a coyote community because it's a burden to have such a secret. My first goal here is to figure out what her genetic background is because I already know that she was wild and is at least high content coyote is not full. Secondly, I would like to talk with other people that have interacted with coyotes or other exotic animals so that I can get tips because I've been doing this myself without any help from the start and it hasn't been easy. Everything can go well and then fall apart instantly. I just got back from a walk with them and at first everything was fine but then when I switched to a new path Acacia became jumpy and ran off for a second. The things that cause her to become afraid indicate to me that unlike a timid or abused dog she has no chance of changing into a normal dog. She will remain somewhat different her entire life no matter how much time she spends with humans or how long she lives in a man made environment. I can relate to that and so I accommodate her.


TamanduaGirl wrote:Yep much safer to say a hybrid and if that photo, being recent, is of her fully adult then I'd revise to say coydog maybe too. Like the ears still aren't fully up there, I suppose could have been due to a deficiency early on though but the black really does throw things off.

PS the stop, since it wasn't clarified, is basically where the muzzled ends and there is a sharp upward slant before the actual head/skill.

And speaking of coys with stops this just popped up on FB

It's a pretty funny series of photos actually
http://www.discoverwildlife.com/gallery ... -max-waugh

Coyote hair, it doesn't really show the roots though.


That photo is over 2 months old and was taken the morning after I found her in the mountains. She had been lost for four days without food or water and looks kind of skinny there. I only posted two recent photos of her, which were taken two days ago, and they are of her alone with her back towards me on a hardwood floor. She is looking into a mirror in one of them. She is changing so much that it's kind of scary. I left for 12 days and had one of my roommates take care of them while I was gone and when I got back Acacia looked so different. She just keeps growing and changing. So I wouldn't say that she is fully adult yet even now.

Thanks for those coyote pictures and for explaining the stop to me. I just call it the brainiac effect and Acacia does have it. The Facebook pictures really show the difference between a short muzzle and a long muzzle on a coyote and I love how they are right next to each other so that it's easy to compare. The picture that I've included below was taken just a few minutes ago and is as current as they get. I don't know if it will change anybody's perspective but please let me know what you guys think.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:36 am

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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby sarajeku » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:29 am

It took some digging, but here's a coyote that shows the root
http://alaskafurid.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/coyote/blogcoyote_back-with-banded-fur_verticle/

You are 100% welcome here and we need more coyote lovers around here! We are just giving you our input since you asked for our opinions on what she is.
To me, I still personally think she looks like a coydog. You need to hear me out though, before posting more pictures of coyotes. Please.

She does't have to have traits that SCREAM doggy dog to be a coydog. She only needs a few very subtle traits, indicating dog ancestry in her background. There are just a few little nit picky things that I see, after working with coyotes every day for. The ear tip/fold/crease whatever you want to call it. The muzzle is a bit blunt on the end.. and the fur texture. These are not obvious to the untrained eye. For now, until I have time to look closer, those are the only things I can pick out and say for certain "those are doggy traits, I think she's got some dog in her."

The white spot on the chest, you mentioned is common for coyotes - some are even born with white paws and keep them throughout their lives, like littermates below. Both have white paws, but it's less obvious (but visible in the second image) on the agouti coyote.
Image
Image


Anyway,
this is a coydog. Even with my trained eye, I can't spot the "dog" in that coydog. But it's still labeled coydog. :shrug:
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Another coydog.. way more obvious in the face.
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A gorgeous coydog stuck in a leg-hold trap
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Edit: Thanks TG, for clearing up the thing about the stop. I overlooked that.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Juska » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Just throwing in my 2 cents here, your dog does looks like she could be a hybrid, though I have seen plenty of small, thin dogs with large ears like yours, that were just mutts. In my opinion it really doesn't seem like she could be pure Coyote at all (obviously I'm no expert, just stating my thoughts here). I just don't see it. And in any case, I agree with Sara and TG in that you should recognize her as a hybrid anyway, for safety reasons.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:43 pm

Well now on photos of coydogs you need to be careful of the source. A lot of hunters will label an off color coyote as a coydog just based on color.

But I agree the ears still look dog all the coyotes have nice smooth curving ears and hers while not folded now still aren't as they go up then the line goes in before continuing up to to the tip. That is a dog trait though wasn't so obvious in some of her photos but the most recent photos show it pretty clearly.

If she is still growing and changing I would suspect some of that is from dog side as well. Some dog breeds keep growing for 2 years or more while coyotes are supposed to reach maturity at 12 months. You said you had her 6 months and she was about 6 months when you adopted her. If not full grown ,since you don't know exact age, she would still be very very close to it and the ears should be done and fully up and growth and changes down to a minimum. Though since Sara raised one she could say better maybe the standard info is wrong.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:42 pm

sarajeku wrote:Anyway,
this is a coydog. Even with my trained eye, I can't spot the "dog" in that coydog. But it's still labeled coydog. :shrug:
Image


Acacia's coat is like that of the one sarajeku posted except her fluff is white and the roots are white. The black starts an inch into the hair. I guess I was being a bit defensive but I do see what you're talking about now. Her ears and muzzle are smaller than that of the coyotes pictured here but they are still fairly large for a dog and bigger than my cattle dogs. I guess since she has all the coyote features except those mentioned above I assumed that she was full due to her behavior. She certainly acts like a coyote.

Her ear shape is pretty common for belgian shepherds so she might actually be part belgian shepherd like the shelter said. While the white spot on the chest is common for coyotes it is also common for belgian shepherds so that might explain her color and the white spot. She does have incredibly silky fur. I don't know if that is common for coyotes but I assume that it's not. Her coat isn't coarse anywhere and she is naturally softer than my cattle dog after a bath using doggy shampoo and conditioner. That black coyote or coydog you posted a picture of is exactly what Acacia would look like in that position. If that's a coydog then I guess she is one as well. I was told that she is part belgian shepherd and part jindo but she could actually be part belgian shepherd and part coyote. That would make a lot more sense. The only problem with her being part dog is how she got to be so wild.


Juska wrote:Just throwing in my 2 cents here, your dog does looks like she could be a hybrid, though I have seen plenty of small, thin dogs with large ears like yours, that were just mutts. In my opinion it really doesn't seem like she could be pure Coyote at all (obviously I'm no expert, just stating my thoughts here). I just don't see it. And in any case, I agree with Sara and TG in that you should recognize her as a hybrid anyway, for safety reasons.


I am 100% certain that she is at least part coyote. I just wasn't sure if she was full or not. She has too many coyote features to not be part coyote. The most obvious are her small chest which make her legs look super long, huge fangs, she howls and makes odd noises, and her paws are like that of a coyote (you can draw and X in the middle of the pad). Those are just a few of the coyote traits that she has but as we can see it appears that she also has some dog traits as well so I'll just venture to say that she is part belgian shepherd and part coyote.


TamanduaGirl wrote:Well now on photos of coydogs you need to be careful of the source. A lot of hunters will label an off color coyote as a coydog just based on color.

But I agree the ears still look dog all the coyotes have nice smooth curving ears and hers while not folded now still aren't as they go up then the line goes in before continuing up to to the tip. That is a dog trait though wasn't so obvious in some of her photos but the most recent photos show it pretty clearly.

If she is still growing and changing I would suspect some of that is from dog side as well. Some dog breeds keep growing for 2 years or more while coyotes are supposed to reach maturity at 12 months. You said you had her 6 months and she was about 6 months when you adopted her. If not full grown ,since you don't know exact age, she would still be very very close to it and the ears should be done and fully up and growth and changes down to a minimum. Though since Sara raised one she could say better maybe the standard info is wrong.


When I said that she is growing and changing I meant that there were small subtle changes due to her gaining weights after being lost for 4 days in the mountains. The biggest change that happened occurred a few months ago. She went from being a small fluffy animal to a long skinny one. She grew by a third, her muzzle grew and she became skinnier all around in a very short period of time which appeared to be a growth spurt. She was supposedly 6 months old in March 2012. That video that I linked to was taken before I even knew of her. I got Acacia 7 weeks later in May 2012. I don't know how accurate the shelter is on the age of stray animals but if anybody can tell me how old she looks in the video that would be helpful. The only other dog I've ever had is my cattle dog and he was supposedly 2 when I got him. He is almost 9 years old now.

I guess we've come to the consensus that she is a coydog. I would still like to know how old she really is and how she became so wild but I can open up a new topic if that is required. Thank you all for the input.

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