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Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Canines not listed on other forums: African Wild Dogs, Coyotes, Dingoes, Jackals, New Guinea Singing Dogs, Raccoon DOGS, ETC..

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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Cindy23323 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:45 pm

edited typed something wrong and cant delete, oops
Last edited by Cindy23323 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Cindy23323 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:47 pm

ucrjedi wrote:
TamanduaGirl wrote:Those coyote collie mixes that are known to be mixes because they come from a breeder look nothing like coyotes either. I'm sure it's not easy to determine from a few photos.


Yeah, it's just a guess either way. Without an actual dna test that includes coyotes in the sample we really have no idea. None of the consumer dna tests check for wolf or coyote so that's why mine was left half blank I assume. Whatever Acacia is, I feel that she is special and others who have met her in person agree. Bottom line is that you can't tell one way or another what percentage of dog a canid actually is without a dna test. After all, most modern humans are at least 4% neanderthal. Here's a picture of Acacia when I just got her. She was super brown back then, which is why she was originally named Brandy by the shelter.


Actually that is untrue, the UC Davis test does test for wolf markers. If I'm not mistaken this test also can check for coyote also.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Juska » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:41 pm

ucrjedi wrote:After all, most modern humans are at least 4% neanderthal.


From Wikipedia's Archaic human admixture with modern Homo sapiens Article:

Various theories of Neanderthal admixture in modern human DNA, i.e. the result of interbreeding of Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans during the Middle Paleolithic have been debated throughout the 20th century, and in terms of genetics throughout the 2000s.

Modern humans do not share any mitochondrial DNA with the Neanderthals, an observation that puts constraints on the possible types of successful mating patterns, since mitochondrial DNA in primates is exclusively maternally transmitted.

Sorry for the tangent, but I had to point that out.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby whitewolf011 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:50 pm

i'm not seeing any coyote in her either......cute dog though.

i have owned and wild coyote pup before and currently have a domestically bred coyote that i have bottle raised since she was 11 days old. she is now 7 months old.

here are two coydog brothers that someone i know has been around and one she owned for a while. they are said to be half coyote, half collie. father was a wild coyote.

http://i39.tinypic.com/24cfkvt.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/qn2nms.jpg
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Ash » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:41 pm

Whitewolf, I would absolutely love to see pictures of your coyotes. I think they are amazing animals. I got to work around one during my internship that was super friendly. What are yours like? Are they super friendly? The one I worked with was very hyper--way hyper than any fox I've met.

Those coyote hybrids sure look like coyotes. I'm surprised that they have dog in them. So beautiful though. I would love to have a coyote someday. Coydogs are legal in my state, but not pure coyotes.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:04 pm

Yeah they look like pure coyotes. The breeder who crosses collies to coyotes gets collie looking coydogs not wild coyote looking ones.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:10 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Yeah they look like pure coyotes. The breeder who crosses collies to coyotes gets collie looking coydogs not wild coyote looking ones.


Do these recent photos convince anybody that Acacia is at least part coyote? She sleeps and walks differently than a normal dog.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:59 pm

Sorry but no, not any what so ever.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:25 pm

But the same can be said of even verified coydogs
Image

I think it can be nearly impossible to tell just from looking at their photos and none of the commercial tests test for coyote dna markers yet.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:36 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:But the same can be said of even verified coydogs
Image

I think it can be nearly impossible to tell just from looking at their photos and none of the commercial tests test for coyote dna markers yet.


I like your answer much better especially since it goes with the Mars (Banfield) dna test that I did using a blood sample. It showed half of her lineage going back several generations and the other half was completely unknown which was a big hint. That coydog is super cute. I do notice some similarities between it and Acacia such as the tiny chest and the very slender legs. Are you taking care of it? Seems like it could be a show dog.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Talys » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:50 pm

Looks like one of the Windstorm coydog pups.
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby ucrjedi » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:59 pm

Talys wrote:Looks like one of the Windstorm coydog pups.


Thanks for the response. I was looking around the hybrid area and just noticed the coydog breeder photos. I guess I should start positing there since it's clear that Acacia isn't a full coyote for sure. I'm pretty excited because next Saturday will be the 2 year anniversary of me adopting her. She's so much better now but still skittish. Also, the following link resolves the original question of whether or not coyotes can be tamed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Wiley.html
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:45 am

And your in California if I remember right. Apparently coydogs are a somewhat natural occurrence there, more so than on the East coast anyway.
http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/ ... 82511.html
Those two have more obviously coy features though longer face and bigger ears. But judging by the ones bred and known to be part coy that's a crapshoot on how much of what features they get(though also as I said before there are differing coyote types on the west coast too, some have much shorter faces and smaller ears than the other type. A friend who runs a sanctuary had a coydog and it just looked dog to me as well but I trust she knew what she had.

Edit: looking at Kelpies I can certainly see the resemblance there too though.

Did find one thing possible of interest though
Kelpie
Image
Notice the smooth forehead between the eyes

Coyote
Image
Notice the sort of divit in the forhead between the eyes
Here too
http://i1.wp.com/www.mountainhomemag.co ... -_opt.jpeg

Brandy
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby Cindy23323 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:45 am

Unknown on those blood tests do not mean wild blood at all. I have seen pure blooded dogs sent in like lets say a gsd and the test come back quarter collie quarter Chihuahua and half unknown. The unknown does not mean its wolf or coyote.
The only test out there that checks for coyote markers or wolf markers specificly is the ucdavis test
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Re: Is it possible to domesticate Coyotes?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:01 pm

It's not one of their commercial tests you can just buy and have done but yes UCDavis can check for coyote but it's a kind of in depth process. I think her vet would need to arrange it and send the sample in. If there really is coyote this could potentially be dangerous even though hybrids are supposed to be legal you can't trust CA's enforcement.

http://www.wildlife-center.com/history/ ... rt-pg-345/


Q Okay, Did you do any testing regarding domestic dog in Cotie?

A Yes, I did. I used the DNA markers that were developed for domestic dogs and tested Cotie with those, and then compared those results with the data I have generated over the years on domestic dogs.

Page 352, line 11 through page

Q And what are you looking for when you do this comparison in the testing?

A [page 352, line 13 *** line 17] I know that after I tested Cotie, I was pleased, first of all, that the profile on first glance certainly looked very canine, dog-like. So after, that I tested some coyotes from Alaska to get kind of a comparison.

[page 352, line 22 *** page 353, line 4]

And many of the DNA markers that I saw in Cotie actually fell right where I would expect to see them in domestic dog.

[Page 353, line 8 *** line 16]

A Well, after I tested Cotie, I realized, of course, that I did need to test 100 percent Coyotes. And so I contacted a variety of colleagues and was able to get some samples sent to me from Alaska by Alaskan Department of Fish and Game, actually.

[Page 353, line 22 *** line 23]

Q What did you find?

A Well, what I found was that, again, we saw a lot of our DNA markers falling into the categories that we sort of expect for domestic dogs, but what we saw, too, was that a number of them started to fall outside of those categories. And they were more different, the Alaskan coyotes were more different than domestic dogs than Cotie was.

Q Do, did you review at some point in time some data generated by the defense expert in this case?

A Yes, I did.

Q What did you review?

A The defense expert in this case did this – did a DNA testing of Cotie using their own set of DNA markers. And then data was compared with a large data set. There’s a researcher at UC Davis who has a large collection of DNA samples from coyotes from different part of the country, but many of them came from Southern California. And they also, tested Cotie’s DNA.

Q What did they find?

A Well, what they did was they, they attempted to do the same, as similar type of analysis as we did, as we had done. The problem was in my – this is my opinion – was that they did not do a valid comparison with domestic dogs. They took Coti’s DNA and they, and they compared it to those coyotes from Southern California and said, “Well, where does Cotie fit amongst these coyotes from Southern California?” But they really never said, “Well, where does he fit amongst domestic dogs?” And so they didn’t really get a very valid answer of where exactly between them Cotie might fit.

[Page 354, line 25 *** page 355, line 2]

Q Is this a report that was written by the defense DNA expert in this case, as far as you know?

A Yes

Q It talks about using numbers for population assignments. And it talks about population assignments of different percentages. Could you tell us what those numbers are and what they mean scientifically?

A Yes. The – these, this data set of coyotes that this researcher at UC Davis had — basically, they had 44 little population groups of coyotes. And they took Cotie’s results that – from their testing and compared them with coyotes from those 44 population groups. And the matching or the similarity of Cotie to 42 out of 44 groups, that was no appreciable similarity. However, two of the groups they describe that there was a probability of assigning Cotie to this group, this one group here and this one group here, there was a 0.54 percent probability, that is 54% probability, of assigning him to this group and a 39 % probability of assigning him to this other group.

[Page 355, line 24 *** page 356, line 6]

Q What did they do with those numbers after they got them in their analysis?

A Well, they didn’t ask the next question which was, well, if he has a 54% probability of being assigned to, lets just call this group A, I think it’s calling something else in the report, this one is group B, then, well, what is the other 46%? What is the other 46% of Cotie, if he’s is 54% of this group? That’s a good question and the question that I would have answered if I had the type of data access that they have. One possible answer is that maybe that 46% is domestic dog.


Q That brings a question up, too. When you are talking about finding a pure bread coyote to compare to Cotie, where do you go to know you have a 100% coyote?

A Well, that’s true. Certainly you wouldn’t want to go to the Southeastern United States with their 10% frequency of domestic dog in the coyotes that, by the way, look exactly like, you know, just the way you would expect coyotes to look, That’s why I – I tried to find a population that I was quite sure would be 100% coyote, and I tested these coyotes from Alaska.

Q Why were you sure they would be more coyote, 100% coyote, than someplace else?

A Well, I talked, first of all, to the researcher who sent me the samples. These were not animals trapped on the edge of towns, whatever; they were trapped out in the wilderness.

Q Do you have an understanding where the defense sample of coyotes that they used came from?

A I just knew they came from populations in Southern California, that’s all I know.

[[COMMENT: The DFG’s DNA expert tests Cotie’s DNA against 44 populations of coyotes. Cotie’s DNA had no appreciable similarity to 42 of the coyote populations. Wouldn’t this mean that Cotie did not have any coyote DNA? With the frequent breading of coyotes with dogs, you can explain the similarity between Cotie’s DNA and the remaining two coyote populations by the domestic dog DNA in those coyote populations.

The defense DNA “expert” found similarities between Cotie’s DNA and the DNA in two of the coyote populations. There was a 54% probability of assigning Cotie to one of the coyote populations and a 39% probability of assigning him to the other coyote population. She then adds the 39% and 54% together and thought Cotie was 93% coyote. This is ridiculous. She does not take into account the similarity between these 2 coyote populations nor the origin of the 50 to 100% of Cotie’s genes not similar to any coyote population. The coyote genes in population A that were similar to Cotie’s genes, are likely the exact same genes as in coyote population B. These numbers are approximations at best anyways. Cotie did not have any DNA similarity between 42 opf the local coyote populations. He had 54% of his genes similar to one coyote and 39% of his genes similar to a second coyote population. Cotie’s genes similar to population A are the same genes similar to population B. The remainder of Cotie’s genes were from domestic dog. If anything, the DFG’s DNA evidence supports the fact that Cotie had little to no coyote in him. He was mainly domestic dog.


So complicated and expensive and not one set simple test like they have commercially for dogs.

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