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training methods :)

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snoball
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training methods :)

Postby snoball » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:49 am

this is for you Ash icon-smile

i buy my puppies from agriculture auctions - always have and prolly always will - costs heck of a lot more starting prices are around £800 and go upto the current recod of £8500 and there's a lot of choice from 6week old pups to 2year old fully trained dogs.

eg:- i select my chosen pup of around 6weeks and by some fluke end up not paying too much for it lol :lol: it then gets chucked in the back of the pickup --- if you had any inclinations that we're really gentle with them then think again, they get picked up by stuff and dropped in the basket end of. collies by their very nature are a resilient breed.

once home said pup goes into a kennel with the other pups that i've got and is allowed to play for 3 weeks --- the kennel door is left open during the day so they can play outside but i've found that they always go back in to sleep :)

training starts with simple stuff - geese tend not to fly off away from the dog but will waddle around so the dog gets used to hearding the geese around the yard - a 9 week old collie is about 15inches head to tail and cos of their size geese are perfect.

if the dog moves to it's left i tell it to "concumby" (walk on comeby) and if it moves to it's right i tell it to "conay" (walk on away). basic obedience is a must training takes a long time nothing happens over night and a lot of time n effort goes into creating a near as damn perfect dog. normal stuff that most people overlook things like stand, still, down, wait, i don't get them to sit i know they do anyways but it's not a requirement in a field.

i have NEVER treat trained and also think that clickers should be banned too. i use whistles but due to me having bad reactions to anything i put in my mouth developed my own set of whistles - i whistle through my teeth - try it and if you're doing it right then you'll feel your front teeth vibrating - takes a bit of getting used to :mrgreen:

you also gotta be able to slow the dog down - a collie can move at speeds of upto around 40mph - one of my friends is a traffic cop and he measured jake on a handheld speed gun at 39.4mph chasing after a ball. training jake has been hard cos of the speed he moves at i gotta anticipate where he'll be at a certain point so that i can give him the correct whistle for the next move icon-smile

as with most things it's all down to the handler the more experience you got theeasier you make it look --- i might add that it's still hard work :)

i start every session with a new dog by just putting it on the ground and taking time to have a really good look at what it's strengths and weaknesses are i can predict pretty much what every dog i have and have had will do at about 9weeks old some like jake are explorers - explorers wander off prefering to get aquainted with their surroundings they don't really like human interaction just want to do their own thing so trainingis really rewarding they respond best to work cos they've got a job and the freedom that goes with it they work best away from the handler and often give best results at trials.

dogs that are all over the handler like a bad case of the measles are bad news in terms of hearding cos they'd far rather stay with the handler than go off exploring.

donna
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snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 2

Postby snoball » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:02 am

the last post was almost too long :icon-wink:

the second stage i use is a long line leash - the one i favour most is a 10metre one --- it lets the dog explore whilst being given commands. you gotta rock n roll with what you've got in front of you and it's far easier to work with the dogs natural wandering tendencies than it is to go against them.

to make the dog comeby you move a tight leash to it's left at same time talking to it and giving praise when it gets it right and scolding when it gets it wrong.

praise training means far more to the dog than a simple treat will ever do. i like my dogs to stand off me - the closest that they ever come to me is about 3 feet away and that for me is good, my dogs all understand the space issue thing.

every time the dog does something that you like tell it in an excited voice and everytime it does something bad tell it in a deeper voice --- you gotta be both good cop and bad cop sometimes at the same time

i've been asked to take on a german pointer - no point treating it like collie so i'll teach it to fetch a ball --- the owners say it doesn't come back and stuff so i'll start with the 10metre leash a throw the ball and then twitch the leash until it brings be the ball back at the same time i praise it for doing it - it's being good and doing what i want it to do without actually knowing that i'm manipulating the situation to suit me :mrgreen:
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Ash
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Re: training methods :)

Postby Ash » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:17 am

That's really cool. I'm sure there is TONS that goes into training a herding dog. Sounds very intimidating to me, but also very rewarding at the end of the day. I used to watch a lot of shutzhund videos--and boy, those dogs are obedient! I imagine herding dogs would have to be just as disciplined.

How many collies do you have, by the way?

Good luck with training the new dog. ;)
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 3

Postby snoball » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:45 am

hi ash :)

every puppy takes around 12monthsto train to my expected standard for it so for example i buy it january with the knowledge that by the following january it'll be "on sheep" or tracking properly on an agility track or going hell for leather on the flyball run :)

a lot of the pups that i buy have already been sold before i buy them - people are prepared to pay top dollar for a future prize winner (lots of money changes hands at flyball and agility tracks).

i have 9 pups at the moment in training (all have been pre-sold) plus my all round general purpose dog Jake - i bought Jake for myself cos of his foxy red colours no other reason he was asleep and looked totally disinterested in anything so i thought in for a penny in for pound - well several pounds (£3600 in fact). some poeple ask me to train their dogs nad depnding on what it is that they want trained determines whether i'll take it on --- i favour working and gun dogs -- so for me collies are top of the list, then it's setters, dalmations, pointers retreivers, cocker spaniel, and springer spaniel. all i got to do with most of these is teach them to fetch a ball not exactly difficult a few end up on the agility circuit cos their owners get used to exercise and want more from their dog.

obedience wise - it's nothing like what you see at crufts or wherever - all they need to do is take the commands - comeby, away, down and wait and here and that is about as technical as it gets no need to over complicate matters cos farmers have enough on their plates without more being piled on top :icon-wink:

most of the training is about getting the owner to trust the dog more and give it some freedom to behave like a dog - a lot of people are scared to let their dogs off cos "it won't come back" --- too many negative vibes for me in this lol :mrgreen: they just need to chillout and roll with it - the dog will respect that and bond more tightly to the owner - at least that's what i've found.

me and jake are very close prolly cos i'm with him 24/7 but he has his freedom when i'm training one of my pups - they really tire very quickly sprinting up and down after a ball on the new style flyball track.

one thing that i've only recently started to use is the thermohydrotherapy pool - put simply a treadmill in a bath that's operated by my local vets --- it's fantastic the pool is kept at a steady 10 - 15 degrees C and it helps the dog to relax the muscles i've even put radox bath foam in their cos it's got muscle relaxants in it and the dogs have never had any serious injuries, you get the odd one that pulls a muscle but nothing major :icon-wink:

donna
Last edited by snoball on Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 4

Postby snoball » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:57 am

when Elina says that i can have my red fox kit from her nudge, nudge :icon-wink: :icon-wink: then i'll be with it 24/7 so i'm pretty sure that it'll pick up on a lot of the things that Jake "Jakeyboy" does so i think it'll be just as rewarding for me --- wouldn't mind going to crufts with a well mannered and well trained foxy :lol:

i've already got a whole bunch of foxy stuff cos it's gunna be tiny so i can't use jake's old stuff with it --- damn --- more trips to the online dog shop that i use http://www.muddypaws.co.uk --- sorry for the blatant plug but i've been using this particular online store for years and they've never let me down.................. my foxy will be wearing the same Ruffwear products that i use for all my dogs - harnesses, leashes, collars, bowls, travel bowls, car kennels you name it i get it all from them --- i'd visit a pet store but can't really be fussed with it when i can have everything i need delivered to my front door :mrgreen:

donna
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Re: training methods :)

Postby RabbleFox » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:05 pm

Collies are absolutely awesome dogs. I really enjoy their personalities and quirks. Could you post any pictures? Sometime in the future I definitely would like to own one.

I personally treat train and don't use corrections unless absolutely necessary. Though praise is motivating for some dogs, I find most dogs like to work for something else. Merlin likes belly scratches and tasty snacks. Bae Dog liked to tug. I try to work with the dog to find what he likes best. Soon I'll be introducing a rabbit fur tug that will hopefully become a good motivator for Mer.

I've actually taught my Rat Terrier, Merlin, to "come by" and "away to me" but we haven't tried on stock yet. I would love to sometime in the future!
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snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 5

Postby snoball » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:49 am

in many ways i feel blessed icon-smile i live by myself and hate being couped up in a box (house) if i could live in a forest i would but only if i can have my dog (and later this year my fox) with me :mrgreen:

i always buy farm reared collies - they just don't get the sort of injuries that house bred ones do --- house bred collies are bred as companion dogs and should not be confused with farm bred working dogs.

working dogs need mega exercise with minimum of 10 miles per day every day no matter what the weather - house bred ones will take it easy and just want a trip round the block and that's it. house bred collies tend to make the best obedience dogs as that's what they're bred for --- working dogs make the best agility, flyball and livestock dogs.

collies only ever have one master/mistress and they pick that person - not you - they will work for most people but always look up to that one person for guidance as to whether they can do something or not before they do it :mrgreen: a lot of people forget this - if there's only one of you as in my case then they focus on you for everything - they stare at you for the next command in a "i've done that boss, what's next ?" way that i love cos it means that the dog not only wants more but is actively seeking more work :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

as for putting a terrier in with livestock --- don't even go there you might have trained it to part heard but it'll all go out the window the minute it sees a lamb or calf. try it with geese (not so big and good eating should the worst happen :icon-wink: ) and you'll see what i mean - you stand there and say all you like but your dog is bred for hunting and that is something that you've got to accept --- it will kill given half a chance.

so if you want something that'll work for you then go farm bred --- if you want something that'll stick to you like glue go domestic bred :mrgreen: and you and your dog will be happy and not disappointed :mrgreen:

i've never really bothered to take a camera into a field with me --- just one more thing to get lost :icon-wink: so i'll endeavour to get some pics of jake working cattle later :mrgreen: it's just the speed he moves at is too quick for most cameras and i've not got a vidcam icon-sad

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Re: training methods :)

Postby RabbleFox » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:30 am

My next dog will actually be a corgi hopefully. I haven't the time commitment for a working bred collie just yet as I'm a university student. We will definitely dabble in herding if the pup shows instinct!

Merlin is a special sort of terrier, bred not just for ratting but also general farm work. In early America, Rat Terriers were extremely popular among farmers for their size, work ethic, and because they were easy to come by. They are very, very soft terriers and display very little common terrier traits. Mer's only real prey interest lies in rats. And even then it's been a taught interest. Wish I had a video of him Barn Hunting!

Ratties aren't very popular as herding dogs but then again, they also aren't popular dogs to begin with. Versatility is their middle name! A Jack of all trades.

One of the only Ratties I know that has been trained on stock:
Image

We've a long way to go before he is put on stock and I'll have to find a teacher that is willing to work an unconventional dog with me. :P If he doesn't pan out then I'll just have to wait to try my corg on stock. Mer and I have a variety of sports and work we want to get into anyways haha.

Next time y'all are out in the field you will have to drag a friend to photograph your dogs at work!
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snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 6

Postby snoball » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:15 am

you say you want a herding dog ok all herding dogs are totally nuts they're also high maintenance when it comes to exercise all herding dogs are hyper active little sods and they're a nightmare for someone new to the game --- i mean show me an obese farmer and i'll show you a liar lol :icon-wink: --- it's a 24/7 job it's not just about what it's like indoors cos they're born nuts - THEY'RE BORN AND BRED TO BE OUTDOORS - they can cope indoors but really hate it.

as for training or getting someone to coach you --- is there a farm near where you live that's got livestock ie; sheep goats ducks geese that sort of thing ????? if there is then try and get work experience with the farmer - you'll have to pay your own way but it might be the only way to broach the subject of training for your terrier they might even you give you a few lessons in exchange for your working there - i don't know it's not like it used to be anymore. in the old days you turned up with a dog at lambing and auction time and helped out --- nowadays you have to have degree in dog handling to get through the door unless you happen to be me :icon-wink: i can coach you through it'll take quite a few months until something just clicks and "feels right" oh and the best part i don't charge my friends for my time :icon-wink: if you want take some video of what you've done so far --- you don't need livestock to be able to do it - walk down the street dog off leash and get it going "comeby" and "away" so it's zig zagging the pavement (this is the safe way of doing things as there's nothing for it kill) - if it respects you as a handler it'll do as you say and weave pretty lines all over the pavement --- so post your vid in here and i'll pass comment on it, i'm pretty sure there's a few other members that'll pass comment too.

corgi's are just a toned down version of the border collie - they were originally bred to heard sheep on the windswept moorland of wales where their short legs meant that they didn't get blown around as much icon-smile the exercise regime is still roughly the same though - the more you give the better it'll be in the long run and the happier you both will be icon-smile corgi's are still born with too many brains which means that they need and desire more mental stimulant than most aside from the border collie :lol:

the trick with a collie is too pack as much mental and physical stimiuli into one session as you can - severe mental overload is as good as a 10 mile run with one :icon-wink: so if you live near a shopping mall that'll let you walk one through it then it'll be half trashed by the end of the first time- then it'll make you run 10 miles for your efforts as well :lol: . i take mine all over the place - different places, different sights, different smells, different sounds etc....... i mean i'm going to treat my fox the same way when i get it - just overload the darn thing and hope it doesn't ask for more than it's going to get lol :lol: should be a right one to watch - am also hoping and silently praying that my collie will keep it on the straight and narrow for me too he's got the brain capacity for the task it's just whether he'll apply it to the job icon_confused.gif

If you think that a fox is hyperactive bundle of fluff then try keeping up with a collie - Jake is currently pulling 20 miles on his days off and normally around 30 miles when he works -- do you really have 6hours a day to spare to run a working dog properly ?????

most dogs can be trained to herd it's your time constraints that i'm questioning - i put 12hours a day every day 365days a year, no holidays, no time off, no sick days, no nothing put simply my life is my collie's and soon to be fox too --- if you've not got the time cos of your studies then forget it and get a lapdog or something similar instead

either way am thinking that you need to visit an outdoor store rather rapidly for a new pair of boots and some waterproofs cos either way you're going to be needing them lol :icon-wink:

i'm going to see some friends tonight on their longhorn cattle farm so i'll try and get some pics :) i don't like being photographed at all so i'm rarely in any pictures :icon-wink: Jake on the other hand is real poser :lol:

donna
snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 7

Postby snoball » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:32 pm

hoping that i can these pics to import lol :icon-wink: left frustrated again aaarrrrgggghhhhh :red-face:

now i'm hoping that PAT being the starlet that she is :mrgreen: can fill this space with the Jakeyboy action shots that i've mailed to her cos my system won't let me put pictures up icon-sad
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Re: training methods :)

Postby RabbleFox » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:57 pm

We haven't gotten very far in our directional training. I shaped comeby and away to me pretty hard with the clicker so he is very excited to perform them readily. However, the most I have tried to get him to do is go around groups of objects in the direction I want. He is good at that. We are in the baby stages of "walking up" and laying down on the fly. I'll try to get a video of what we have so far buuuuut I'm going on vacation for a week (the first one in two years!) starting late tonight. I'll post an updated video when I see the scamp again XD.

There is a highly recommended herding instructor that I will be living close to at University. She mainly works with herding breeds but I'm going to go and see if she will help me with my ground work.

I'm a big herding dog person, actually. My childhood dog is pictured in my avatar, an Aussie. My previous dog was a husky mix. I'm no stranger to exercise (mental and physical) or training, haha. I honestly can't wait to get my corgi if things pan out. He is coming out of a fantastic bitch.

My dog(s) have been my primary hobby/my life and will continue to be. Though I will be going to university and working, I do not expect either of the dogs to be under stimulated in any way.

Definitely can't wait to see some photos of your woofer!
Merlin:
Image
Early, early come by training, in Feb:
https://vimeo.com/85691427
And for fun, here is a photo of Pepper last summer!:
Image Image
He is 11 now and still "peppy".
~RabbleFox
snoball
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Re: training methods :)

Postby snoball » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:19 am

if you want to see some pics of Jake then have a look at my introduction piece cos there's few of them in that icon-smile

you could be in luck with the trainer hopefully she'll see that you've tried hard as it is and she'll see what you've done - a lot of it is just repetition every time i walk out my front door is a training session for jake doesn't matter if i'm just going to the local store there's still time for pratice with him :icon-wink:

the "down" on the fly - i did it with a ball - collies love to chase so if you can get it to do everything with a ball involved then over time bring livestock to replace the ball then it's easier than trying to get it "down" without the reward icon-smile

pepper looks like a typical aussie sheepdog (they're not collies) - thought that when i first saw the marbled effect on the fur cos normal colours are full blocks of colour even the merles :) way cute - love the swagger that they have when they walk too - like they own the place icon-smile

i nearly bought an aussie kelpie last november and that would've been soooo much fun :) smaller than jake but still got the same intensity as a border collie which i love sooooo much :icon-wink:

it's going to be intersting when i get my fox cos jake weighs 31kg and is all muscles and prone to keeping everything in order put simply what he says goes no questions asked :icon-wink:

i've pm'd pat to tell her that i've sent some pics for her to put up in here after her very gracious offer to do so icon-smile

donna
snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 8

Postby snoball » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:35 am

at long last i've updated the photos on my facebook page :mrgreen:

the addy for my piccies and there's a lot of them on there is :-

http://www.facebook.com/snoball.snoball/photos

all the piccies from last nights visit to my friends farm are on there as well :mrgreen: am on a roll now hehehehe :lol:

donna
snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 9

Postby snoball » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:40 am

just in case anyone is wondering about what jake's got in his mouth in that first picture ---

it's his favourite teddybear - keeps him out of mischief cos he takes it everywhere with him :mrgreen:

donna
snoball
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Re: training methods :) part 10

Postby snoball » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:46 am

i started with a new pup - there's a pic on my FB page showing the litter i bought a while back and Buster was getting a bit too adventurous for his own good so i started with him on a long line and a set of geese :)

he's a proper natural herder which really surprised me - most of the time they need it drumming into them as to what to do but buster had his own ideas how it should be done and well i just watched him and started putting a few commands to what he was doing :)

needless to say all the geese respected the little guy and did as he wished up and down the yard and through the barn and back into the yard --- this dog is champion trials material and i'm well happy icon-smile just needs a bit more finesse but not much he's got a wise old head on his shoulders and takes his commands almost every time but he still tries to second guess what's going to happen :) i've worked really hard with him and it's sttarting to pay off for me :)

with a bit of luck and a following wind he'll be ready for the dog auction in august yippee :)

donna

ps also got asked to take on more domestic dogs but tbh i'd rather not cos there's not enough money in it for me --- much as i'd like to do it i keep having to turn people down :(

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