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Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Breeding, caging, housing, bottle feeding, domestication, colors, in cage enrichment, etc.

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Wiggles
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Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:07 am

What morph is this red fox? A friend purchased her as a cinnamon, but we're thinking that maybe she is an amber or something else. She came from a silver x cross breeding, and this coloration popped up seemingly by accident according to the breeder. Thoughts?
Kimi.png

Oh, and here's my little cross marble, Chandler. He's way bigger now than he was in this picture, though.
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TamanduaGirl
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:01 am

Collicot or maybe burgundy.
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Ash
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Ash » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Wouldn't be collicot. There aren't any in the US, unless the "breeder" was a fur farmer. Even then, I don't know if any farms here have collicots. Dave from Tiny Tracks would know, but I've asked him before about it, and it didn't sound like there were any available here.

Cinnamon and burgundy are the same colors, just different names.

Amber is a double-recessive combo. It would need to be homozygous pearl and homozygous cinnamon. So the chances of it being an amber just "popping up" is not likely. A much more likely explanation would be that each parent fox was heterozygous for cinnamon.

Ambers have a different eye color than other foxes. At this age it would be hard to tell since a young fox's eyes change so much. But when they reach adulthood, an amber fox should have definite green eyes.

So it probably is what it was sold as: cinny/burgundy.

What breeder did your friend get their fox from?
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:51 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Collicot or maybe burgundy.

Ash wrote:Wouldn't be collicot. There aren't any in the US, unless the "breeder" was a fur farmer. Even then, I don't know if any farms here have collicots. Dave from Tiny Tracks would know, but I've asked him before about it, and it didn't sound like there were any available here.

Cinnamon and burgundy are the same colors, just different names.

Amber is a double-recessive combo. It would need to be homozygous pearl and homozygous cinnamon. So the chances of it being an amber just "popping up" is not likely. A much more likely explanation would be that each parent fox was heterozygous for cinnamon.

Ambers have a different eye color than other foxes. At this age it would be hard to tell since a young fox's eyes change so much. But when they reach adulthood, an amber fox should have definite green eyes.

So it probably is what it was sold as: cinny/burgundy.

What breeder did your friend get their fox from?


She came David Keener in Ohio.

Good to know on the Collicots not being available outside of a fur farm & ambers having green eyes; that certainly clears things up a bit.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Alynn » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:31 am

I vote cinnamon/burgundy as well (cinnamon just being another name for burgundy).

Colicott brown would be unlikely as Ash said (they have blue eyes as well), and amber for the reasons she also explained.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:09 pm

Alynn wrote:I vote cinnamon/burgundy as well (cinnamon just being another name for burgundy).

Colicott brown would be unlikely as Ash said (they have blue eyes as well), and amber for the reasons she also explained.


Sounds good to me!
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:17 pm

While we're at it, is this a cross or a gold? I'm working on learning to ID the various morphs from pictures of friends' foxes. I'm thinking gold in this case.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:05 am

Maybe a pearl cross?
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Ash » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:10 am

Hmmmm.... The picture looks saturated, so it's hard to tell for sure. Also, gold and red are very hard to tell apart.

I think I agree with TG though about it being a pearl cross, or maybe some sort of cross. Cross are very variable in their amounts of black, so isn't always easy to tell.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Alynn » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:09 pm

Looks like a smoky gold to me, seems to lack the cross on the back. Maybe a very pale gold cross. Even with saturation I wouldn't think that it's a pearl cross, pearl crosses are a lot paler in the silver coloration(http://photo2.poga.lv/photos/1206/0630/ ... 2943_b.jpg)
I think I've read in my book that a fox carrying the pearl gene tends to have lighter fur and silvering than other foxes, but don't quote me.

A golden sunrise (a smoky red fox + fire gene) could also be possible, but one of the parents would have to have the fire gene.
Image
Golden sunrise

Either way, there's a lot of soft gray/silver coloring in the haunches, and the black on the face says smoky fox to me.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:13 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Maybe a pearl cross?

Ash wrote:Hmmmm.... The picture looks saturated, so it's hard to tell for sure. Also, gold and red are very hard to tell apart.

I think I agree with TG though about it being a pearl cross, or maybe some sort of cross. Cross are very variable in their amounts of black, so isn't always easy to tell.

Alynn wrote:Looks like a smoky gold to me, seems to lack the cross on the back. Maybe a very pale gold cross. Even with saturation I wouldn't think that it's a pearl cross, pearl crosses are a lot paler in the silver coloration(http://photo2.poga.lv/photos/1206/0630/ ... 2943_b.jpg)
I think I've read in my book that a fox carrying the pearl gene tends to have lighter fur and silvering than other foxes, but don't quote me.

A golden sunrise (a smoky red fox + fire gene) could also be possible, but one of the parents would have to have the fire gene.
Image
Golden sunrise

Either way, there's a lot of soft gray/silver coloring in the haunches, and the black on the face says smoky fox to me.

Interesting. She's from the same litter as the burgundy that I posted at the start of the thread. I'll upload another picture of her.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:20 pm

Hopefully these other pictures that I have of her help with an ID. Thanks in advance!

Lana 4.jpg
Lana 3.jpg
Lana 2.jpg

By the way, I've been reading & rereading the guide that you linked me to, Alynn, and it's been a huge help. Just is a little confusing as some of the multi-gene morphs look so similar to each other.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:58 pm

This little guy is from the same litter as well further adding to my confusion for determining who is what. His sister is similar as well, but I can't get her to hold still for me in order to get a picture.

Bishop 2.jpg
Bishop 1.jpg

So to recap, the burgundy female, pearl gold/fire gold female, this silver male, & another silver female all came from the same litter from cross x silver. Talk about confusing, huh? :shrug:
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Alynn » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:11 pm

pearl gold /fire gold are not synonymous, just a heads up. With even more pictures of that baby and of her back, I really do think she is a dark gold fox/smoky gold fox. If those pictures aren't saturated, then she is pretty pale.

The pictures you just posted of the silver-looking fox almost looks like she has some very faint red on her, like she's a very dark silver cross, and has a pretty distinctive dark cross on her back. But if you're not sure, then go with silver.

If you have pictures of the parents, or know where the parents came from (breeder wise), that can also help determine what they are.
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Re: Cinnamon, Amber, or Something Else?

Postby Wiggles » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:13 pm

Alynn wrote:pearl gold /fire gold are not synonymous, just a heads up. With even more pictures of that baby and of her back, I really do think she is a dark gold fox/smoky gold fox. If those pictures aren't saturated, then she is pretty pale.

The pictures you just posted of the silver-looking fox almost looks like she has some very faint red on her, like she's a very dark silver cross, and has a pretty distinctive dark cross on her back. But if you're not sure, then go with silver.

If you have pictures of the parents, or know where the parents came from (breeder wise), that can also help determine what they are.

Yes, I realize that pearl gold & fire gold are different animals genetically; I just went with that until we're able to nail down a definite ID.

That last one & his darker sister were bought by a friend as crosses. Another friend got the gold female as a cross as well. And then another friend has the burgundy. All four of them are littermates from a litter of 11. :shock:

I don't have any pictures of the parents nor do I know their origins, but I will see if I can get pictures and/or that information. I'd be willing to bet that they were acquired at the Mt. Hope auctions or swaps, so it could be any one of several breeders if that's the case.

Just had these pictures sent to me of the gold female. None of the pictures of her or the other foxes have been edited by the way; that's just how the lighting is.
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