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SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

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JQ24
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Re: Sibfox

Postby JQ24 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:11 am

what im most curious about is if zebra directly contacted the institute through out the whole process to see if they were actually sending a fox?
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Elina
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Re: Sibfox

Postby Elina » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:22 pm

JQ24 wrote:what im most curious about is if zebra directly contacted the institute through out the whole process to see if they were actually sending a fox?


In theory they probably would not talk to her as the fox would not have been being sold to her but to Sibfox so it would have been none of her business as far as they were aware.

The institute do not sell foxes under 6 months of age, this is to insure they are the tamest or 'IE' as they call it.
Sibfox told Zebra that her fox would have been here 60(?) days ago. . . The fox would not have been 6 months old at that point in time. If the fox was from Russia it would not have been the government holding up the shipping but simply the age of the fox.

The above is besides the point but I really do hope very much that Sibfox do send Zebra her fox, she has paid enough for 2 of them as it is let alone then having to pay a lawyer to take them to court.

I had been talking with someone the other week about this and it put a staggeringly worrying thought in my mind; what if they do send her a fox and what if that fox is tame but what if it was born in the US to normal non domesticated parents? The thing is that a tame, bottle raised fox will be no different from a 'domesticated' fox in so far as someone who has never owned a fox before would know. . . It would also cost a whole lot less for the seller and the person who bought said fox would have nothing to complain about, they would have a tame silver fox. . .

That was just a thought someone I know had, I hope this does not happen to Zebra. If she has a good feeling about Sibfox hopefully it will be correct as that is often the way. I know when Wesley wanted me to help him with his Corsacs I had a horrid feeling about it so I wish I listened to my gut.

Zebra, I very much look forward to hearing about your little man, I already have your blog on my favourites ready :icon-wink: .
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http://theflashmans.blogspot.com/ - Online home of Elspeth and Harry Flashman the Corsac foxes.
http://flashmanfoxes.webs.com - Photos and videos of my foxlings!
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foxftw
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Re: Sibfox

Postby foxftw » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:58 pm

yeah i have her blog saved and i check it and this site frequently to look for updates.
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Lasergrl
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Re: Sibfox

Postby Lasergrl » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:36 pm

Im not sure if this has been linked here before.

http://experimentsinwandering.com/place ... ovosibirsk

Personally i find then obnoxious. They are just too much. Seriously I dont even like to be around dogs this needy. Our US domestic foxes are just the perfect friendliness when they are raised right, the problem is they mature.
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the_unstable
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Re: Sibfox

Postby the_unstable » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:07 pm

Wow, they are domesticating mink also? I had NEVER heard of that...I wonder why they don't sell them too? Or if they do, it's just not as heard of.
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Juska
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Re: Sibfox

Postby Juska » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:31 pm

I like them. I'm used to having dogs that act like that, having a fox that acts the same way would be just as good for me (and about 10x more expensive, haha).
Pet parent of Emo the border collie mix, Conte the schnoodle and Namira the American shorthair
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zebrafox
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Re: Sibfox

Postby zebrafox » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:31 pm

my heart is broken. they day they were supposed to arrive in the u.s. i recieve this in my inbox

Kay,

foxes arrived in US,but unfortunately there were multiple problems with the foxes and USWF didn't allow them in USA. Problems included issues with transportation (cages used) and health conditions - foxes had high temperature and veterinary inspection showed that due to neutering surgery done poorly foxes are having health complications. At this time foxes are in carantine and USWF ordered their shipment back to Russia with all associated charges (carantine,veterinary care, transportation to Russia) to be billed to SibFox.

Due to the fact that we are unable to deliver you a fox in a reasonable timeframe - a 100% of your deposit will be returned to you via overnight mail. Please see attached a copy of cashiers check #9438003871 issued to your name,which will be mailed today - a FedEx tracking number is 797680690044.

I would like to sincerely apologize on behalf of SibFox team,but unfortunately there is nothing we can do to change the situation in any way. At this time we are re-considering our business relationship with the Institute as an unreliable business partner.
-David

i reply:
Dave,

Where are the foxes located right now, what port? How are you in contact with the USWF? Can I have their number? I want to talk to someone there and see if there is any way I can explain to them that it's my fox and I can get it medical treatment there. I can also get the treatment for the other foxes. Help me get in touch with them please so I
can speak to them before they send them back to russia in this condition!! Please!!


Kay,

due to medical condition foxes were not allowed on a flight,but due to USWF order they can't stay in USA,therefore we used the only remaining option and signed a USWF form 3-2096 transferring foxes to be a government property - we were told they will be transferred to a zoo,but we will not have access to information what zoo or any other details.As of now,the foxes do not belong to us anymore.

We feel your frustration and are also deeply concerned with the situation. Unfortunately,SibFox experienced a very poor communication and low realiability with the Institute promises and actions,which resulted in this situation,as well as our severe financial loss (the Institute received a full payment for foxes and their transportation to US).
This is all the information we can provide.
-David

David,
can you just tell me which port, thats all i need and then i will leave you alone. i just want to know what port please

Dear Kay,

thank you for your letter. Unfortunately,David is no longer with SibFox team.

We will not be able to provide information you're requesting.
-Alex Smith

ff
vf
This is all information we can provide.
Last edited by zebrafox on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Whatsername
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Re: Sibfox

Postby Whatsername » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:48 pm

Zebra, I am so sorry. :( I know it's not much of a consolation but at least you are getting your money back. If you need any support, we are all here for you.
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caninesrock
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Re: Sibfox

Postby caninesrock » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:54 pm

According to this site:

http://www.hum.utah.edu/~bbenham/2510%2 ... riment.pdf

Other physical changes mirror those in dogs
and other domesticated animals. In our foxes,
novel traits began to appear in the eighth to
tenth selected generations. The first ones we noted
were changes in the foxes’ coat color, chiefly a
loss of pigment in certain areas of the body, leading
in some cases to a star-shaped pattern on the
face similar to that seen in some breeds of dog.
Next came traits such as floppy ears and rolled
tails similar to those in some breeds of dog. After
15 to 20 generations we noted the appearance of
foxes with shorter tails and legs and with underbites
or overbites.


And this site says:
Morphological changes: These changes were perhaps the most surprising (and gave the best support to Belyaev's predictions). A much higher proportion of experimental foxes had floppy ears, short or curly tails, extended reproductive seasons, changes in fur coloration, and changes in the shape of their skulls, jaws, and teeth. They also lost their "musky fox smell."


Link:http://scienceblogs.com/thoughtfulanimal/2010/06/monday_pets_the_russian_fox_st.php

And from here:
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/3/259.full
Despite selecting only for behavior, numerous dog-like morphological and physiological novelties emerged in the foxes (Trut 1999, 2001). Among some foxes, skulls became wider and snouts became shorter. Individuals with floppy ears, truncated tails, curly tails, and anomalous pigmentation patterns (Figs. 2A, 3), all dog-like traits, were observed in at least some foxes. The farm foxes also show signs of heritable relaxation of the reproductive cycle, with biannual oestrus appearing in some animals (Trut 2001).


Photo of What A Domesticated Fox Should Look Like:
Image
Fox demonstrating some of the dog-like behaviors that characterize the tame population. Play in adulthood is more common among foxes of the tame population. Photograph courtesy of Anna V. Kukekova


The above fox is piebald colored. Unless sibfox can provide a fox that has floppy ears or a curled tail or a pieblad coat or two of or all 3 of these traits, I'd still believe they're scammers because you can get tame silver and tame platinum foxes from the US,which are what's pictured on their site.
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Re: Sibfox

Postby pat » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:10 pm

zebrafox,

how I am so very sorry to hear all that.

I know how excited you and even the members here were about
you getting this fox. :cry:

Those emails they sent you, don't make sense to me.
but, I don't know much about shipping animals either.

I feel really bad for the fox. it is so very sad.

I hope you can track that fox down.
let us know if there is anything we can help you with.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

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zebrafox
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Re: Sibfox

Postby zebrafox » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:26 pm

i am so sad. i have cried so much, i am so depressed. i am going to try to call all the ports tomorrow and locate them. but something just isnt adding up here. i just dont know whats really going on. all i know is im not getting my baby, and he may be out there sick and suffering and theres nothing i can do. i feel so foolish and helpless
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Alynn
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Re: Sibfox

Postby Alynn » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:31 pm

I'm sorry Zebrafox. That really stinks. We were really looking forward to hearing about him.
I feel for you, when I was supposed to get Miehiera in June and when my breeder lost his litter I was devastated. Then when I went to Tiny Tracks, my dad was an idiot and told them the wrong date for pick up, so when they emailed asking where he was he got all pissy and told us we're not getting the fox. I bawled for awhile after that, then called Dave and sorted it out.
It was a terrible feeling knowing that fox I had prepared for and saved for I was not getting.
I'm so sorry.

At least when someone comes to the board asking about SibFox and the domesticated foxes in Siberia we have something to tell them. It's not the best consolation, but know that all your efforts weren't totally in vain.

I hope that you're able to locate the port and get information about where he is taken.
From what I know, there's only a few ports in the US for bringing in exotic animals, so hopefully it isn't that difficult or there isn't some sort of liability issue where they can't release you the information.
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caninesrock
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Re: Sibfox

Postby caninesrock » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:42 pm

@Zebrafox: If it makes you feel better only for the fox's sake, I don't think this fox even exsisted to be sick. It's sounds like a scam to me. They made all kinds of excuses and then finally didn't give you a fox at all, like red tape from the russian government preventing them from shipping, saying that foxes had to be in quarintine after already being shipped, then said health problems for the foxes that prevented them from being allowed into the US, couldn't name a port location for the foxes, and claimed this David person no longer works for them. Plus, as someone else mentioned, there are no records of this business's exsistance and no records of it having the import licences they would need. The photos all look like normal tame foxes from the US.And they made you pay ahead of time.It all sounds very fishy to me.
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Ash
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Re: Sibfox

Postby Ash » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:42 pm

Zebra, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. These people have treated you wrongly! I can imagine how difficult this must be for you, but please know that we all wish you the best of luck and will do our best to hep you through this time.

There was no way you could have known that it was going to turn out like this, and there's no reason to feel foolish. Many people thought sibfox was reliable. It's sad that you had to be the one to find out.

I can understand how hard it must be not getting Viktor--especially with all that you went through. I just think that what they did to you was terrible. Please let us know if you are able to get a refund.

I'm sorry for what happened, and I wish you the best of luck.
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pat
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Re: Sibfox

Postby pat » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:50 pm

I was also thinking on the same lines as caninesrock.

at this point, I hope there was no fox, if so, this would be a horrible experience for the poor guy.

but, I feel so very bad for you. I hope you can find out if there was a fox, and if so, where it is.
at least for your peace of mind.

I really hope you get your full refund back. sounds like you will.
that part is good.

but, again, I am extremely sorry for the problems you had to endure.

as the members said, we are here for you.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den

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