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SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

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foxftw
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby foxftw » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:53 pm

oh man i hope you get your fox back!! im praying for you and commenting about it on the face book too!!
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby JQ24 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:59 pm

I know if i was in this situation, and i saw difficulties on the zoo's part, i would threaten with a law suit. I dought a place that relies so much on the public would want to deal with something like that. Also you may not have to go through with it, but just having a lawyer ready, would make them understand how important this really is to you
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby foxftw » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:59 pm

aawww they already deleted my comment not even 5 minutes later. that guy moderating that is watching it like a hawk.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:00 pm

the problem is that they are fully within the law to keep the foxes. I have no legal right to them.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:08 pm

Guys don't harass them. It's not going to look good for Zebra's case if we have people jumping all over them. I did post but I can't check facebook, they probably deleted it, so I can't really talk, rofl.

Good luck Zebra! I hope that they will be willing to give them to you, or at least let you have the fox you were supposed to get.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby foxftw » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:10 pm

im confused about one thing though. i thought zebra was only getting viktor. why do they have 2 foxes?
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:13 pm

Someone else also bought a fox from the company but both of them were confiscated because of Texas law.
Zebra wants to get both of them so that she can try to find the other person who bought them and get him to them.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Ash » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:14 pm

Yes, don't accuse them. If anything say something to the effect of "If this fox was paid for and bought legally, shouldn't it be returned to its owner?" That's pretty much what I said. But Alynn's right, it will just make the zoo more angry if you get in their face about it.

For all we know, the curator may be thinking the matter over already. It wouldn't be good for him to be "accused" right now when the zoo is 100% within their rights. Remember, it's the importer's mistake, so the zoo didn't "steal" them.

If you want to threaten with a lawsuit, the people that should be "threatened" should be the importers. But that would NOT be right since they returned all the money anyway, so it would just be a matter of greed.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby caninesrock » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:20 pm

That's not a good sign that they keep delete comments. :(

At zebra: You might have a case if you can prove that you legally got the foxes and that it was the shipping company that was doing ilegal stuff and tricked you. Plus I know it's not legal to have a fox as a pet in Texas,but is it also not legal to import them into Texas? I mean zoos have to get their foxes from somewhere. Surely all the zoos in Texas don't get all their foxes from fur farms which are the only breeders in Texas. If it's not illlegal to import a fox through Texas,only to own one, you could make the case that your constitutional rights were violated because the wildlife import service jumped to false conclusions that just because it was a domestic fox being imported into Texas meant it must belong to someone from Texas who wanted it as a pet in the state,instead of actually investigating the matter. You can also state things like the fact that the shipping company claimed to belong to another state and it was only after that you found out they lied and were actually in Texas. Also, make sure to mention that you did everything legal on your part,showing evidence of any licenses, permits,etc. that you had to get in oder to be able to legally import and/or pick up the animals. Make sure you also show your knowledge of foxes by showing pictures of your outdoor enclosure, stating what you would feed the fox, showing that you have an exotic vet whose willing to treat the foxes, and having the vet testify if necessary. You can also can get your USDA contact to testify for you and if they're willing employees(or I guess ex-employees since they went out of business) from sibfox. I doubt they'd be able to come in person but mabye you can get employees of the Russian institute to testify over the phone or something. You can also get a wildlife service agent of your state who issues permits to testify and say that you have meant all the legal state requirements for owning the fox. If you have ever volunteered at any kind of wildlife sanctuary, it would good to get them to testify on how good you are with animals as well. You just have to make the case that YOU did everything legal.

Hopefully it won't come to having to take them to court though.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Ash » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:35 pm

I don't think you could win a case like that. It's very unfair that what happened happened, but the zoo can't be forced to give them up.

Isn't the problem not that foxes aren't legal in Texas, but that the importers did not have the proper permits to import in the first place? Also, if no one was there at the airport to pick up the animal, then that's the fault of the importers for not telling zebra she had to pick him up there.

I really hope the zoo will be cooperative though. Like I said, it would be great if zebra could get her fox, and that's what I'm praying for. I just don't think legal action will get you anywhere.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:46 pm

A laywer might get them to listen though if they refuse to.

If they didn't have the correct paperwork they could have just be held if I'm not mistaken, but from what I understand the authorities took the foxes because they thought they were bought as pets in the state of Texas when that is not the case.

I'm wondering why the heck they even imported them into Texas though. There's tons of other ports and in states where they are legal.

I am not sure though, gonna re-read some of these posts.

And they didn't delete my post, strange.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:50 pm

learned it isnt the public AZA but the Sanctuary thats holding them. This gives me hope.

foxes are illegal to import and keep in texas except under very special circumstances and the importer did not have the permit for that special circumstance

we called the sanctuary and the person in charge is out but should call us back today...

the facebook comments are sticking now. If everyone can leave a kind, respectful comment about believing the foxes should be with their rightful home and not a facility it would be appreciated. it may help if they see that that public opinion does not agree with keeping them there
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby caninesrock » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:56 pm

Here's the Texas laws on importing:
Importation and Release of Fur-bearing Animals
• No person may import live fur-bearing animals into this state from another state or country unless:
• a permit has been issued by the department for such importation and a copy of the completed permit
accompanies any live fur-bearing animal being imported or is attached to any container used to import live
fur-bearing animals
• the imported animals are accompanied by a health certificate signed by a veterinarian accredited in the state
of origin
• if the imported animals are foxes, raccoons or skunks, a signed letter of authorization issued by the Texas
Department of Health


It is a Class C misdemeanor to transport, sell, or possess for the purpose of transporting or selling live foxes,
coyotes, and raccoons to a person in another state or country or to a person within this state. For additional
information contact the Zoonosis Control Division of the Texas Department of Health at (512) 458-7255 or
http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/zoonosis/


No person may sell or export live fur-bearing animals outside this state without possessing a letter of authorization
from the Wildlife Division. A request for authorization must include written documentation verifying that
the recipient of the live animals is in compliance with applicable regulations in the destination state. A copy of
the completed authorization shall accompany the animals at all times during shipment or be attached to the
shipping container used to export the animals.


Apparently the reason foxes and other fur-bearing animals are banned as pets are for fear they might spread rabies and other diseases to native wildlife, pets, and humans.

Fur-bearing Animal Propagators may be exposed to a variety of diseases associated with fur-bearing animals.
Data has shown that handling, importation and release of fur-bearing animals from the wild poses a potential
threat through the introduction of new strains of rabies and/or parasites to native fur-bearing animals, pets and
humans. If you think you have come in contact with a diseased animal, contact your physician immediately.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, CONTACT: Wildlife Information
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, Texas 78744
(800) 792-1112
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us
PWD LF


I suppose the state's under the illusion that the fur-bearing animals can't possbily escape from fur-farms, zoos, or research institutions. :monk-cop:

On a side note, I 'm really glad I'm moving from Texas as I just found out that not only can I not get any species of fox as a pet,but I can also not get a coyote, mink,civet(suprised genets are legal since they are really simiar to civets),opposum(it doesn't specify the type of opposum so it probably means all),otter(was considering an asian small-clawed otter at one point), raccoon, or ring-tailed cat. But mainly, if I stay in Texas I can't have any canines as exotic pets basically. The only canines not listed on the US endangered species list are coyotes, foxes ,and jackals. Coyotes and foxes are illegal. I'm not sure on jackals though. It seems in spite of the many exotic pet stores here Texas isn't good for exotics after all. I wonder if the pet stores are aware that the animals they are selling are illegal for the public to own.
Last edited by caninesrock on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Exotic Wishlist: high content wolfdog or wolf,low to mid content wolfdog, Coyote, Coydog, Black-backed Jackal, New Guinea Singing Dog, Red Fox, Gray Fox, Mink, Raccoon, Coati,and Kinkajou.

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Alynn
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:59 pm

That's good news zebra. I think the sanctuary will be more willing to work with you than the zoo itself.

My mistake, it is a red, not a whitemark. This is the picture you posted of him earlier:
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102 ... fox4-1.gif

Kay, do you have the permit in order in Michigan to have a red just in case they do allow you to have him? I just got off the phone with a breeder here in Michigan and he told me as long as you have the permit you can have them in the house, just in case you are worried you can't have them as a pet.
Last edited by Alynn on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:02 pm

how would these 2 laws work together?



1) It is a Class C misdemeanor to transport, sell, or possess for the purpose of transporting or selling live foxes,
coyotes, and raccoons to a person in another state or country or to a person within this state. For additional
information contact the Zoonosis Control Division of the Texas Department of Health at (512) 458-7255 or
http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/zoonosis/

2) No person may sell or export live fur-bearing animals outside this state without possessing a letter of authorization
from the Wildlife Division. A request for authorization must include written documentation verifying that
the recipient of the live animals is in compliance with applicable regulations in the destination state. A copy of
the completed authorization shall accompany the animals at all times during shipment or be attached to the
shipping container used to export the animals.

Could a request for authorization be issued for foxes?
edit: FB comments deleted again

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