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SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

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Alynn
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:07 pm

We need TamanduaGirl, she's the one who's good at reading the laws. Otherwise, it might be good to get a lawyer to look over things with. Some lawyers will just look at the laws for you and let you know the options without charging you anything. They can tell you if you have a legal leg to stand on at all, but right now it looks like whether or not you get Viktor is at the discretion of the curator.

Well, obviously they have already landed and been taken, but you could make the case that you could have done that? :S I don't know how all these laws work in tandem with each other.
After all, they weren't going to be sold in state, and usually there are laws about how they can be in the state if they're going to be moved out soon. For example in the law in Ohio they're trying to pass, you can have tigers if you're a travelling exhibit as long as you move them out of the state within four days.

And I can't believe they keep deleting the comments. Very unprofessional. Looks like mine is the only one left.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Lasergrl » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:19 pm

If they refuse call the news. All channels. This IS a story and it may help.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby JQ24 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:31 pm

what lasergrl said is exactly what im trying to get at. This is a zoo(or atleast they will be going to a zoo). They definatly do not want a bad repuation. Things like hiring a lawyer, or even putting your story on tv, will get them to atleast think over saying no
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:36 pm

The zoo forwarded our call to a state wildlife official who explained that because the foxes were confiscated, the zoo would be in violation of the Lacey Act if the foxes were transferred to someone else.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm

if anyone knows any workarounds...please let me know
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Alynn
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:02 pm

I don't really see how. The animals are now legally possessed by the zoo. They were legal to import. They are legal in Michigan and they are legal federally.

The act seems to be geared towards the illegal poaching of plants and animals as well as the importation of federally illegal organisms. Not a legal pet that simply did not have the proper paperwork.

Here it is more in depth:
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd16usca3371.htm

I'm going to read through it and see if there's any way around it, meanwhile I would contact the USDA person you've been talking to and a lawyer.

EDIT:
(1) In general

Subsection (a)(2)(C) of this section does not apply to importation, exportation, transportation, sale, receipt, acquisition, or purchase of an animal of a prohibited wildlife species, by a person that, under regulations prescribed under paragraph (3), is described in paragraph (2) with respect to that species.

(2) Persons described

A person is described in this paragraph, if the person--

(A) is licensed or registered, and inspected, by the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service or any other Federal agency with respect to that species;

(B) is a State college, university, or agency, State-licensed wildlife rehabilitator, or State-licensed veterinarian;

(C) is an accredited wildlife sanctuary that cares for prohibited wildlife species and--


(i) is a corporation that is exempt from taxation under section 501(a) of Title 26 and described in sections 501(c)(3) and 170(b)(1)(A)(vi) of Title 26;

(ii) does not commercially trade in animals listed in section 3371(g) of this title, including offspring, parts, and byproducts of such animals;

(iii) does not propagate animals listed in section 3371(g) of this title; and

(iv) does not allow direct contact between the public and animals; or

(D) has custody of the animal solely for the purpose of expeditiously transporting the animal to a person described in this paragraph with respect to the species.


Basically, what I'm getting from this is now that the foxes are possessed by the licensed sanctuary, the sanctuary is exempt from the Lacey Act.

Also, foxes are not federal prohibited species.

(g) Prohibited wildlife species--The term “prohibited wildlife species” means any live species of lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, jaguar, or cougar or any hybrid of such a species.


I'm no lawyer, but there could be a way around it. Don't get your hopes up, but I would seriously consider getting a lawyer or working with the USDA and see if there is.
Last edited by Alynn on Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:08 pm

it wasnt legal to import them into texas without the proper texas permits. he didnt have those. so they were illegal and thats why they were confiscated. and thats also why they were not forwarded to michigan, because it would have violated the lacey act. and whats why i cant get them now. i dont understand how the zoo was able to take posession of them without violating the lacey act.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Alynn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:17 pm

Not legally imported no, but they were acquired by a facility exempt from the law. Therefore the animals are no longer illegally possessed.
You could also be exempt if you get a state and USDA license, and the fact that you are not selling or breeding the foxes from what I understand.

(A) is licensed or registered, and inspected, by the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service or any other Federal agency with respect to that species;

(B) is a State college, university, or agency, State-licensed wildlife rehabilitator, or State-licensed veterinarian;

(C) is an accredited wildlife sanctuary that cares for prohibited wildlife species and--

(i) is a corporation that is exempt from taxation under section 501(a) of Title 26 and described in sections 501(c)(3) and 170(b)(1)(A)(vi) of Title 26;

(ii) does not commercially trade in animals listed in section 3371(g) of this title, including offspring, parts, and byproducts of such animals;

(iii) does not propagate animals listed in section 3371(g) of this title; and


(iv) does not allow direct contact between the public and animals; or


I'm not sure though, so you should really get in touch with that USDA person.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:31 pm

i just talked to the head of texas wildlife for a long time
apparently because the foxes were a seized item, the government still owns them. they just let the facility keep them. the facility cant transfer or sell them without government permission which the government would never grant because its against their own laws apparently
i asked him repeatedly if there was any possible way in existance and he said no.....
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Ash » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:40 pm

If they're the property of the government, that changes things then. I'm not willing to believe that there are no exceptions that can be made--rather, it sounds like it would be too much work for F&W to want to do. Look for something in the Texas law that will let you appeal to the wildlife board. They should have the power to grant a variance.

Even if you are not able to get your fox, just know that they really are in a good place. A sanctuary is better than a zoo. It also sounds like they have interactions with the handlers (at least, that was the vibe I got from reading their FB posts).
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby caninesrock » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:58 pm

Ash wrote:If they're the property of the government, that changes things then. I'm not willing to believe that there are no exceptions that can be made--rather, it sounds like it would be too much work for F&W to want to do. Look for something in the Texas law that will let you appeal to the wildlife board. They should have the power to grant a variance.

Even if you are not able to get your fox, just know that they really are in a good place. A sanctuary is better than a zoo. It also sounds like they have interactions with the handlers (at least, that was the vibe I got from reading their FB posts).


The Austin Zoo is a sanctuary only in the sense that some of the animals they have on display are rescues. In all other ways, they are a zoo. The animals are constantly on display and the zoo is always open to the public. The term "Austin Zoo and Animal Sanctuary" is misleading as a sanctuary doesn't allow the public to see the animals without making appointments ahead of time or when they have special open house days. I know bcause I volunteered at a wolf sanctuary and that was how it worked and I believe other sanctuaries work the same way as well.

The animals being owned by the government makes it more complicated. If that's the case, sueing the zoo won't do any good and I don't belive you can file a lawsuit against a state government,not unless you confront the federal government and ask them to investiagate the matter and give you a court case against the sate of Texas.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:02 pm

i know theyre in a good place..but he's still my fox. its so hard to give up.
its POSSIBLE that the facility can be given permission to transfer the fox elsewhere but the govt is VERY reluctant to do that because if they make one exception...and its found out, other people will try it.. this is what I was told.
ill try to find if i can appeal...
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby caninesrock » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:07 pm

If the Texas government doesn't want to give the fox to you because you are a private owner maybe if the Austin Zoo curator is cooperative he can get in touch with a zoo curator from the state your living in and get permission to transfer the foxes to that zoo and for the foxes to become that zoo's property since they'll be out of the state of Texas and not under Texas law and hopefully that zoo will then be willing to sell and/or give the foxes to you.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:09 pm

that is possible but id need to find a zoo here who will do that.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby Ash » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:48 pm

Zebra, keep your spirits up. I understand that it must be really hard, but don't get depressed. If absolute worst comes to worst, the foxes will be well-taken care of, and you will have the chance to import another one from Russia this coming spring. I know that's probably not what you want to hear right now, but just know that things will be okay no matter what happens.
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Re: SIBFOX SCAM and domestic fox discussion

Postby zebrafox » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:03 pm

Its funny timing, today you guys find Viktor for me, and today the institute sends me a photo of a red female who is all ready for exportation
Image


i sent them an email asking lots of questions about her, how old she is, her personality etc... and shes definitely related to Viktor. My USDA guy and I could fly over there next month and get her if I wanted :B

I could wait for a younger fox, but it would be at least 4 months old when I get it anyway. So sometime in August... And if this girl is sweet than it doesnt make a difference to me if shes young or adult or a boy or girl

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