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its been a while........ Food question....

When to spay, food, treats, illnesses, grooming, parasites, odor, Teeth, other care as it pertains to health, etc.

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s.iker
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its been a while........ Food question....

Postby s.iker » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:03 pm

Hey guys.. Been a while since i have been on the site..

Still renting a house.. so no foxy yet. :( Im kinda worried that i may not have my chance... Apparently (according to DVM360.com) That ohio is taking measures to restricting exotic animals as being pets.. Im not sure if true or not.. (anyone from ohio on here know of this?!) But it makes me worry that by the time im ready for my fox that they will be banned, or really hard to legally get.

1.) But i do want to know a few things... My interest is still a red fox. So food wise.. i know that raw is best... but if im not able to... what about this food with some raw added, like a heart from a butcher shop or if i go hunting for the taurine and such.. i know that this has some in it.. but im not sure if its enough.. I can get it from work cheap, I think its like 2$ or 3$ a can. But i get it at cost....

food:
http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-fel ... anned.html

Its critical care for cats and dogs, but it has high amount of stuff in it that might be ok for a fox?
I feed my ferrets a raw diet, and it is pricey. I know that if i feed raw for a fox im gonna be WAY up there in price.. Not that its a Huge deal, but i kinda want to know other options. That will keep my Fox healthy.

2.) Another question.. im getting into trapping.. What about these animals to use as food. I would skin them and only feed the meat, while selling pelts and such.

*Please note, that yes with trapping there will be a chance that i may trap a fox. I have thought about this, and i have No intentions on trapping foxes.. (how can i?!) Any that i do trap will be released... I believe that i was told there are some traps that dont hurt the animals as much (not like the live cage traps), but ones with rubber grip instead of sharp edges and teeth and such. That i am looking into so if i do i can release the animals that i do not wish to trap, with doing the least amount of damage. But as of right now i will be only using Dog proof traps. (meaning no coyotes, foxes, or dogs will get in the trap) But if i do go for larger game there is that chance.*

Back to the Animals in question:
Raccoon and Possum worry me the most about the diseases and such....
The coons and Possum are more than likely gonna the most critters i will be trapping for. So it would be nice to be able to use the meat so that im not only skinning them and wasting an animal.
Coyote - i cant remember what people thought about feeding a predator to a predator... I plan on hunting them this year, but i dont know how coyote meat will taste to a human, and how it will affect a fox...
Beaver, and the other water creatures- These im not sure if i will even get any, depends on where i decide to trap.

Hunting:
Deer:
Pheasant:
Squirrel- Diseases...
Bear?

Would it harm my fox if i fed them the meat from these animals? I worry about parasites.. Any other trapping animals that would harm them? Beaver, mink.. etc?

3.) I also am planning on raising rabbits for food and fur.. (for my ferrets and myself) But would feeding a rabbit be sufficient enough for a fox if i went about that way? Do they need other means of foods? (sorry that im comparing to a ferret.. I know that they are WAYYYY Different.. but) I know that ferrets need 3 different types of protein.. I cant just feed them chicken, they need other types of animals.. but im not sure on a fox.. Could i just feed them rabbits for the rest of their lives? I would skin them to use the fur, but they would be getting everything else on the rabbit as is.... not even gutted if thats better for them for their insides....

Thanks guys
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:09 am

Is there a date on the 360 post? Ohio severely restricted "exotics" awhile ago but it doesn't apply to foxes just exotic cats primates and the like.

Foxes need about the same amount of taurine a day as cats which if memory serves is around 500mg which seems to be about the same for anteaters. Heart has a lot of taurine and I give that as part of my anteaters diet but for some reason I still needed to supplement taurine to make Aurora healthy so individual needs may vary. Personally I am leery of multivitamines for domestics used on exotics as it can cause imbalances rather than fix them, oh just clicked the link and that's a food, ha. Well, then look for something better than hills. You can buy premade raw frozen or even freeze dried like natures variety. I recently went back to using a meal of frozen NV once a day for my guys, just the beef though since that one is fairly low in phos but that's due to Hyzzie's kiddney values testing a bit high so the need to keep low phos. Even the kibble of Nature's Varriety is awesome stuff and should be suitable for a fox, though you might ask them how much taurine their dog kibble has, I'm not sure. Cat food can be too fatty and wrong vitamin levels for foxes. The fancy dog foods like NV that have lots of good things added is much closer to their needs(organs, some fruits and veggies added).

td:lr skip the hills and buy a good cannd/dry food instead. Check out dog food adviser as a decent place to start to understand what to look for.

Wild meat sources. Cook them or keep the meat DEEP frozen for more than 30 days should render it safe from most things. One thing I know freezing is especially difficult to kill is trichinosis so wild boar should always bee cooked. Raccoon is best always cooked too. Possum isn't as bad actually. Rodents and squirrels are fine long as there isn't a plague outbreak in the area.

Rabbit would be a decent staple but they should have some other things, rodents, some regular meat here and there and vegetable matter. It's important to vary some, just one species raised in one specific way wont be rounded enough and will make a higher risk of dietary imbalances.

Edit: cooking any predator might be wise, cuz, rabies, just to be safe.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby Ash » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:00 pm

Does anybody have any idea on mink nutrition? There are quite a few mink farms in Utah, and I know that they've sold mink meat to other farmers and private owners. I haven't really looked into it myself, so if you don't know the answer off the top of your head, don't worry about. I'll go find it because I shouldn't be so lazy, lol.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Yeah someone posted this recently and mink are listed

https://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Whole ... 2May29.pdf

Edit: doesn't have the ca:phos ect on it but the basic is there
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby s.iker » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:50 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:Is there a date on the 360 post? Ohio severely restricted "exotics" awhile ago but it doesn't apply to foxes just exotic cats primates and the like.

Foxes need about the same amount of taurine a day as cats which if memory serves is around 500mg which seems to be about the same for anteaters. Heart has a lot of taurine and I give that as part of my anteaters diet but for some reason I still needed to supplement taurine to make Aurora healthy so individual needs may vary. Personally I am leery of multivitamines for domestics used on exotics as it can cause imbalances rather than fix them, oh just clicked the link and that's a food, ha. Well, then look for something better than hills. You can buy premade raw frozen or even freeze dried like natures variety. I recently went back to using a meal of frozen NV once a day for my guys, just the beef though since that one is fairly low in phos but that's due to Hyzzie's kiddney values testing a bit high so the need to keep low phos. Even the kibble of Nature's Varriety is awesome stuff and should be suitable for a fox, though you might ask them how much taurine their dog kibble has, I'm not sure. Cat food can be too fatty and wrong vitamin levels for foxes. The fancy dog foods like NV that have lots of good things added is much closer to their needs(organs, some fruits and veggies added).

td:lr skip the hills and buy a good cannd/dry food instead. Check out dog food adviser as a decent place to start to understand what to look for.

Wild meat sources. Cook them or keep the meat DEEP frozen for more than 30 days should render it safe from most things. One thing I know freezing is especially difficult to kill is trichinosis so wild boar should always bee cooked. Raccoon is best always cooked too. Possum isn't as bad actually. Rodents and squirrels are fine long as there isn't a plague outbreak in the area.

Rabbit would be a decent staple but they should have some other things, rodents, some regular meat here and there and vegetable matter. It's important to vary some, just one species raised in one specific way wont be rounded enough and will make a higher risk of dietary imbalances.

Edit: cooking any predator might be wise, cuz, rabies, just to be safe.



Not sure on the 360.. *runs to check*

I hear the hills stuff that anyone can buy in the stores is bad. But the prescription stuff is good. Even the vets say that. The food i posted is the prescription stuff. Did you look at the nutritional stuff on the food? It is a dog/cat food. just cause its a critical care. What Kinda of dog food would be best? I remember seeing the raw stuff in the fridge at petsmart. Is that what you mean? Dog food adviser?

Has anyone kept their fox on dog food and other supplemented food and they been healthy and ok? I feel like my memory has been wiped clean of what to feed a fox seeing as i havent been on here in a long while!

I freeze the stuff i hunt (deer and pheasant ) for my ferrets.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby s.iker » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:54 pm

Looks like i was reading outdated information! hahah from 2011 :wall: :red-face:
Whew... thats kinda a relief. :p
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby Ash » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:35 am

Thanks, TG.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:01 am

Well, when my old dog had liver and kidney problems they put her on Hills science diet KD. She ate it like it was candy but lost weight drastically real fast. I put her on a home made food suggested by a pet nutritionist instead and she thrived. Actually looking at the link it's almost all liver and some corn. I think the main point of this food is to smell and taste enticing for animals that wont eat, so yeah if you really needed an "ensure for animals" type food it would be okay but not as a main food.

I used to only be able to get Nature's Variety at specialty pet stores but I've seen it at Pet Co now so maybe is at Pet's Mart too. I know there are other frozen and freeze dried foods as well now. One thing about their kibbles if you buy that instead is they spray the outside with some of the freeze dried food to up the nutritional value a bit. My dogs get some kibble to snack on when they want and get a meal of the frozen NV then other meals of some meat and meat bones, plus they have freeze dried lamb lung for treats.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ you can look up foods on there and see what is good and bad about them.

People have used blue diamond for foxes a lot and taste of the wild.

s.iker wrote:I hear the hills stuff that anyone can buy in the stores is bad. But the prescription stuff is good. Even the vets say that. The food i posted is the prescription stuff. Did you look at the nutritional stuff on the food? It is a dog/cat food. just cause its a critical care. What Kinda of dog food would be best? I remember seeing the raw stuff in the fridge at petsmart. Is that what you mean? Dog food adviser?

Has anyone kept their fox on dog food and other supplemented food and they been healthy and ok? I feel like my memory has been wiped clean of what to feed a fox seeing as i havent been on here in a long while!

I freeze the stuff i hunt (deer and pheasant ) for my ferrets.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby pat » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:25 am

s.iker,
I can only tell you my experience. I have raised foxes for 12 years.
mine are fed cooked chicken mixed with grain free dog food.
also, they get chicken giblets and raw eggs every day.
once in awhile, I will give them some raw chicken with bone.

all are very healthy and very active. so I must of done something correct :shrug:
I think foxes by nature prefer chicken/turkey. my foxes love raw liver. I do feed the them organ meat raw.
everything else is cooked. personally, I think the number one food for a fox is poultry. rabbit is also good.
also, organ meat should have enough taurine for them. I believe the grain-free dog food also has some taurine.
mine get grain-free dog food with their chicken.

as for trapping raccoons, a foot trap seems very inhumane to me. if a raccoon is caught in a foot trap,
many chew off their foot. :cry: if you must trap a raccoon, use a have-a-heart. try not to do it in the spring,
that is when their babies are born. sorry, hard for me to accept killing raccoons, guess cause I raise them.
but, on another note, many are hit by cars and shot by people. wish I could save them all, but, I know that is not possible.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby s.iker » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:13 pm

"Wild meat sources. Cook them or keep the meat DEEP frozen for more than 30 days should render it safe from most things. One thing I know freezing is especially difficult to kill is trichinosis so wild boar should always bee cooked. Raccoon is best always cooked too. Possum isn't as bad actually. Rodents and squirrels are fine long as there isn't a plague outbreak in the area."


Okay. So if im gonna do say the natures valley kibble, how often would a supplement of other foods be necessary? I feel bad i that really dont know or understanding the whole feeding process.... :/
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby pat » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:31 pm

s.iker,

I am sorry my information was useless to you. so I will bow out of this topic.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby TamanduaGirl » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:11 am

Nature's Variety bills it's self as being complete by rotation(for cats and dogs anyway). So you feed beef one time then get venison another etc. For foxes you might use the poultry ones and venison more than beef. But it's a good idea to throw in their frozen of freeze dried sometimes or some other meats like you mentioned. The idea is you get completeness from variety long as it's over all within the parameters of what's needed.

So you might give them their kibble ration then give them a meal of meat then at bed time give them some veggies to nibble on over night since they are more likely to eat them when hungry then use organ meats like the dried lung of liver for treats. But that an example. It can be a bit flexible. There's no 100% right way set in stone. That's why variety is helpful but it's okay to use one main food and supplement with other things like I used as an example here. You could just as easily use the whole rabbits you raise as a base and rotate other things.

If you're really concerned I could explain the basics on how to formulate your own diet like I did for y anteaters and like Ragtatter did for her fox. I think it might actually be good to do that but formulate meal plans. add up the nutrition of foods to make sue they meet requirements as a whole for the week and feed them over the week rather than all ground up in a food and maybe have a few different ones to rotate.

PS Pat I don't think she was ignoring you so much as she just used a random quote in her reply. The quote wasn't even in my most recent post or have anything to do with her Q so no offense meant in her not quoting you I'm sure. The NV is grain free too.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby Ash » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:35 pm

Raising rats, rabbits, and poultry would probably be better in the long-run, depending on how many foxes you intend to keep. That's what I'm planning on doing, and then you wouldn't have to worry about the harm that could come to an animal getting stuck in the trap. And you'd know they'd be free of parasites and problems and you could personally make a bit of profit by selling off some as pets, feeders for reptiles, etc., too. Anyway, just thought I'd mention that.

I think it would be safer to trap animals with a cage-type trap. Or better to just shoot them (during hunting season, obviously) if you want to feed yours wild game. I used to be okay with leg-hold traps until I spoke a bit more to some other people, including trappers (albeit just a few trappers). But apparently sometimes it's really awful what can go wrong. So just a word of warning there.

I'm all for raising your own feeders though, lol. But that's because that's what I'm planning to do, and it gets me excited to encourage others to do it too!
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby s.iker » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:24 am

s.iker,

"I am sorry my information was useless to you. so I will bow out of this topic."

I understand. Trapping and hunting is very controversial to a lot of people. But its kinda the same as having an exotic pet... Cause i get lectured up the wazoo about wanting a pet fox.. Yes, i KNOW they are not exactly the same. But you get it.. So i guess i figured that it would be easier to get an understanding from the crowd im speaking to.... obviously not. But, i did mention in my first post that i wanted to keep it strictly to the question at hand... to keep the controversy away. Yes, there will be trapping animals, that you might have as a pet. Its gonna happen. and yes, I know others have coons, (like you pat) and maybe possums, Coyotes as pets... But im not going out hunting in your pet's enclosures...

I get that some may not be a fan of it.. but it is something that i do. And its food for me, and my pets. Im sorry that you may not agree.

So i did kinda ignore you, but kinda got side tracked with the other post.


Yes i do want to raise my own feeders. I feel like that having the rabbits as part of their diet would be a nice little supplement.

"So you might give them their kibble ration then give them a meal of meat then at bed time give them some veggies to nibble on over night since they are more likely to eat them when hungry then use organ meats like the dried lung of liver for treats. But that an example. It can be a bit flexible. There's no 100% right way set in stone. That's why variety is helpful but it's okay to use one main food and supplement with other things like I used as an example here. You could just as easily use the whole rabbits you raise as a base and rotate other things."

Sooo.. If i did the Say. "insert really good like grain free really nutritional Dog food" here.... (depends on what brand i chose) My foxy could be ok on just that?
Cause dog foods have the veggies and fruit in it..
Or do i have to have other stuff supplemented?

Back to the Hills, i guess that it would come down to how the pets react to it.. Just as any human would react to any food. I had to put my dog on a sensitive skin, and i was recommended hills, Its the stuff you get from the pet store.. and after i put him on it, he was golden. So it worked for me. But i can understand your concern.
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Re: its been a while........ Food question....

Postby pat » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:47 am

I understand. Trapping and hunting is very controversial to a lot of people. But its kinda the same as having an exotic pet... Cause i get lectured up the wazoo about wanting a pet fox.. Yes, i KNOW they are not exactly the same. But you get it..


nope, foot trapping and owning a fox is NOT the same. You must of misunderstood what I said about
FOOT TRAPPING. Have you ever foot trapped before? are you going to have the time to do this? I never said anything about
hunting, only FOOT TRAPPING. I suggested using a humane trap. might and might not get more animals in a foot trap that will suffer. it very cruel to use a foot trap.

Let me give you an example: a while ago, my oldest fox escaped, I found where he was (about a mile from my home)
I spent 5 weeks watching his pattern so I could get him. finally, I hired a a trapper to help. he set a foot trap, but, we were all there when the trap was set waiting for him. finally, he did get caught in the trap. he was only in the trap for less than 5 minutes before he was released. he had a pretty bad cut on his foot from the short time he was in the trap. took weeks for it to heal.

Another time, one of my dogs got caught in a foot trap from someone that set a foot trap in the corn field, I was lucky there was someone else there that found him. otherwise, he would have died in that trap. he would have died a horrible slow death, just like some of the other animals in wild do.

The reason I mentioned a "have a heart trap" is they are more humane. when my fox escaped (before I realized he was a mile from my house. all I got in those humane traps were raccoons and possums. my point is, if you want to trap small animals, a foot trap is not a good option. Foxes will get caught in a foot trap. so, why are you so worried about catching a fox in a foot trap? is it because of your interest in them? well, if you do get a fox, then use them as food as well.

if you think you are going to make out on selling pelts, think again. pelts are down in price and have been for quite awhile.
do you really want to waste your time with trapping, when you should be spending more time with your future fox?
or do you want to find a trap with only a foot in it? how cruel is that or the trap missing attached to an animal?

The trapper told me there is a good possibility that a foot trap will break the animals leg. so, if you plan on releasing an animal from a leg trap you don't want, keep this in mind. HOW CRUEL IS THIS?
How do you plan on releasing the unwanted animals that you don't want? YOU CAN'T TURN AN ANIMAL LOOSE WITH A BROKEN LEG. also, what to you do if you catch a skunk? what about something that is too big to throw a blanket over for release.

Do you understand you have to check those traps EVERYDAY, A COUPLE TIMES A DAY, no matter what the weather is.
you will have to carry a 22 rifle/pistol (if you plan on selling the pelts, the animal usually has to be killed with a 22 or similar small caliber shot between the eyes, otherwise the pelt will be ruined and is not sellable .

also, you will need to carry tools to repair the traps and (chains, stakes) trap lines. you also may want to boil the traps prior to setting them, if you plan on catching anything other than cats and dogs. you may want to try to figure out a head of time how you are going to explain to your neighbors that you trapped their kid's pets.

also, most states require a license to trap. if the trap is not checked in a timely manor, it will impose a problem.
if trap checking is not done according to the states regs, all equipment, including tools, guns etc will be confiscated, and the owner will be fined. if you don't have your contact info on any trap, it is automatically confiscated when found.

also, if the foot trap is not set correctly, the animal can escape with foot trap attached.

in most states, all traps must have a permanently affixed metal tag that has the owners name and address stamped into it so that lazy people that shouldn't be trapping in the first place can't neglect their trap lines. (it has happens too much)
especially for novice trappers.

If you have any compassion for animals, wild or captive, you will think twice about using a foot trap.
I don't see much benefits in feeding your future fox raccoon or possum meat. I personally don't think it is worth
your effort to go through this. what is wrong with raising your own animals for food? rabbits, chickens, turkey?
at least with chickens, you will get eggs for your fox. unless you think eggs are not a good food source a fox.

So i guess i figured that it would be easier to get an understanding from the crowd im speaking to.... obviously not. But, i did mention in my first post that i wanted to keep it strictly to the question at hand... to keep the controversy away. Yes, there will be trapping animals, that you might have as a pet. Its gonna happen. and yes, I know others have coons, (like you pat) and maybe possums, Coyotes as pets... But im not going out hunting in your pet's enclosures...

again, you are misunderstanding my reply. if you plan on trapping, at least try and understand what the procedures are.
I DID NOT SAY NOT TO HUNT. I said, do it humanly. I thought you understood that.

I get that some may not be a fan of it.. but it is something that i do. And its food for me, and my pets. Im sorry that you may not agree
please don't put words in my mouth. this is not what I said. again, I don;t agree with foot traps.
it is apparent you don''t understand foot traps. I don't really care what you do, I care about the animals well being and humane treatment. thats it.

So i did kinda ignore you, but kinda got side tracked with the other post.
yep, thats the way to go,
ignore info you don't want to hear, guess you are smarter than the ones with experience. oh well, I tried to be helpful.

you also asked about the food for your future fox. I explained what I do with mine. but, guess it was not helpful to you.
I have many animals that I have to feed, I do the best I can. so their diets work fine and they get all the important nutrition. many people seem to have tunnel vision on raw diets. I am not for it or against it. to each their own.

oh, and for your science dog food, along time ago, I was told by my vet to feed one of my dogs their prescription science diet dog food, that food killed her. I noticed now, they quit selling it. some vets will push certain dog foods, only because they get a good deal on it.

I have raised a multitude of animals, since probably before you were even thought of. so, I do have a little bit of an idea of what I am talking about.

sorry for the long post. I am not trying to be rude. only honest and straight forward. I wish you best.
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