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Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

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Wiggles
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Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:17 am

Chandler's Diet Recipe #3 (Makes 32 Adult Portions)

Cooked Ingredients:
    24 Quail Eggs (Whole)
    24 Quail Egg Shells (Powdered)
    350 grams Salmon (Skin-On)
    900 grams Green Beans
    2 tsp. Anise Seed
    24 tsp. Flaxseed
    6 cups Brown Rice
Raw Ingredients:
    2 lbs. Chicken Breast (Boneless/Skinless)
    2 lbs. Chicken Gizzards
    0.5 lbs. Chicken Hearts
    1.5 lbs. Ground Beef (73/27)
Instructions:
1.) Measure/weigh out all the ingredients.
2.) Grind the quail egg shells, anise seed, & flaxseed in a coffee grinder until powdered.
3.) Blend the powdered mixture in with the whole quail eggs, salmon & green beans.
4.) Add half the water called for in the cooking instructions for the brown rice to the blended mixture.
5.) Bring blended mixture to a slow boil; stirring as needed.
6.) Stir in brown rice; reduce to simmer; stir as needed.
7.) Remove from heat when most of the liquid has been absorbed by the brown rice.
8.) Allow cooked mixture to cool.
9.) While the cooked mixture is cooling, cut/grind then mix raw ingredients until the raw mixture is evenly mixed; refrigerate until needed.
10.) Mix raw mixture with cooked mixture until evenly mixed.
11.) Divide into 32 individual portions and freeze each portion. Thaw as needed for feeding.

Nutritional Analysis (One Adult Portion)
Total Calories: 298.3
Protein: 30.3% (22.6 grams; 90.4 calories)
Fat: 31.1% (10.3 grams; 92.7 calories)
Carbohydrates: 38.6% (28.8 grams; 115.3 calories)
Vitamin A: 948.4 IU
Vitamin C: 3.8 mg
Vitamin E: 0.4 mg
Vitamin K: 11.7 mcg
Thiamin: 0.3 mg
Riboflavin: 0.4 mg
Niacin: 8.0 mg
Vitamin B6: 0.6 mg
Folate: 73.9 mcg
Vitamin B12: 2.4 mcg
Pantothenic Acid: 1.7 mg
Calcium: 313.6 mg (C:P ratio = 1.03:1.00)
Iron: 3.3 mg
Phosphorus: 305.5 mg
Sodium: 78.9 mg
Zinc: 3.0 mg
Copper: 0.2 mg
Manganese: 1.5 mg

Information for Vitamin D, Biotin, Chlorine, Cobalt, & Iodine was unavailable.

Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes (Second Revised Edition, 1982): http://goo.gl/NG7Iqv
Nutrition Data: http://nutritiondata.self.com/

This recipe forms the core diet for my 14 week old male marble red fox. He eats 1-1.8 portions of this food per day in addition to having open access to Science Diet Adult Optimal Care Original dry cat food as that's what my cats eat. I can't change the cats' food as I have no say in that matter rather that's up to my mom, and there is no way to keep him from eating it.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can improve upon this recipe? I am always looking to improve his diet in any way I can.
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Ash
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Ash » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:22 am

I'm terrible when it comes to nutrition stuff, so I always follow the advice of others more knowledgeable than me, lol. But I'm still studying it and trying to figure out what it all means and how to achieve the right balances. What foods contain what, etc. I'd love to be able to formulate my own diets for all my animals. I want to get to that point eventually.

A GREAT person to speak with is Ragtatter. She is a member here, and she also runs the site "The Pet Fox." http://www.thepetfox.net/

She did a lot of research about red foxes and their diets--both in the wild and in captivity--and she formulated a really good one. She calls them "Gizmo burgers" after her fox Gizmo. You can send her your diet and ask what she thinks about it. Since you actually provide nutritional values, it shows you know what you're doing.

I personally don't use nutritional values as of now just because I have a hard time understanding them. I am going to feed whole prey items with veggies to mine.
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TooManyPets
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby TooManyPets » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:51 pm

Wiggles and I actually both use that recipe for our respective foxes already. Im guessing this was a recipe he is developing for alternatives and variety.
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:16 pm

Ash wrote:I'm terrible when it comes to nutrition stuff, so I always follow the advice of others more knowledgeable than me, lol. But I'm still studying it and trying to figure out what it all means and how to achieve the right balances. What foods contain what, etc. I'd love to be able to formulate my own diets for all my animals. I want to get to that point eventually.

A GREAT person to speak with is Ragtatter. She is a member here, and she also runs the site "The Pet Fox." http://www.thepetfox.net/

She did a lot of research about red foxes and their diets--both in the wild and in captivity--and she formulated a really good one. She calls them "Gizmo burgers" after her fox Gizmo. You can send her your diet and ask what she thinks about it. Since you actually provide nutritional values, it shows you know what you're doing.

I personally don't use nutritional values as of now just because I have a hard time understanding them. I am going to feed whole prey items with veggies to mine.

TooManyPets wrote:Wiggles and I actually both use that recipe for our respective foxes already. Im guessing this was a recipe he is developing for alternatives and variety.

The recipe that I posted is the one that I currently feed to Chandler. I originally started with the "Gizmo Burger" recipe but couldn't find the wheat germ oil & brewer's yeast locally, so that's where I started with making my recipes and went from there. I already have the protein, fat, carbohydrate, & caloric content for the "Gizmo Burgers" in my spreadsheet; I'll have to look up the other values as well then post the whole breakdown for comparison.

I'm constantly looking for ways to improve upon Chandler's food, so I've been changing the recipe each time I make it in order to make it healthier & cheaper (hence why this is Recipe #3). I'm also working on a few different recipes using different meats & vegetables to provide some variety in his diet; I'll post those as I complete them.

I'll go through the book again, write down the recommended nutritional values, & post them so others have them more readily available for formulating their fox diets.
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Wiggles
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:05 pm

Wiggles wrote:
Ash wrote:I'm terrible when it comes to nutrition stuff, so I always follow the advice of others more knowledgeable than me, lol. But I'm still studying it and trying to figure out what it all means and how to achieve the right balances. What foods contain what, etc. I'd love to be able to formulate my own diets for all my animals. I want to get to that point eventually.

A GREAT person to speak with is Ragtatter. She is a member here, and she also runs the site "The Pet Fox." http://www.thepetfox.net/

She did a lot of research about red foxes and their diets--both in the wild and in captivity--and she formulated a really good one. She calls them "Gizmo burgers" after her fox Gizmo. You can send her your diet and ask what she thinks about it. Since you actually provide nutritional values, it shows you know what you're doing.

I personally don't use nutritional values as of now just because I have a hard time understanding them. I am going to feed whole prey items with veggies to mine.

TooManyPets wrote:Wiggles and I actually both use that recipe for our respective foxes already. Im guessing this was a recipe he is developing for alternatives and variety.

The recipe that I posted is the one that I currently feed to Chandler. I originally started with the "Gizmo Burger" recipe but couldn't find the wheat germ oil & brewer's yeast locally, so that's where I started with making my recipes and went from there. I already have the protein, fat, carbohydrate, & caloric content for the "Gizmo Burgers" in my spreadsheet; I'll have to look up the other values as well then post the whole breakdown for comparison.

I'm constantly looking for ways to improve upon Chandler's food, so I've been changing the recipe each time I make it in order to make it healthier & cheaper (hence why this is Recipe #3). I'm also working on a few different recipes using different meats & vegetables to provide some variety in his diet; I'll post those as I complete them.

I'll go through the book again, write down the recommended nutritional values, & post them so others have them more readily available for formulating their fox diets.


I just came across a paper on the taurine content of various meats, so I'll go through it & analyze my recipe then post that information as well.

Taurine concentrations in animal feed ingredients; cooking
influences taurine content: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf
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Wiggles
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:09 pm

Wiggles wrote:
Chandler's Diet Recipe #3 (Makes 32 Adult Portions)

Cooked Ingredients:
    24 Quail Eggs (Whole)
    24 Quail Egg Shells (Powdered)
    350 grams Salmon (Skin-On)
    900 grams Green Beans
    2 tsp. Anise Seed
    24 tsp. Flaxseed
    6 cups Brown Rice
Raw Ingredients:
    2 lbs. Chicken Breast (Boneless/Skinless)
    2 lbs. Chicken Gizzards
    0.5 lbs. Chicken Livers
    1.5 lbs. Ground Beef (73/27)
Instructions:
1.) Measure/weigh out all the ingredients.
2.) Grind the quail egg shells, anise seed, & flaxseed in a coffee grinder until powdered.
3.) Blend the powdered mixture in with the whole quail eggs, salmon & green beans.
4.) Add half the water called for in the cooking instructions for the brown rice to the blended mixture.
5.) Bring blended mixture to a slow boil; stirring as needed.
6.) Stir in brown rice; reduce to simmer; stir as needed.
7.) Remove from heat when most of the liquid has been absorbed by the brown rice.
8.) Allow cooked mixture to cool.
9.) While the cooked mixture is cooling, cut/grind then mix raw ingredients until the raw mixture is evenly mixed; refrigerate until needed.
10.) Mix raw mixture with cooked mixture until evenly mixed.
11.) Divide into 32 individual portions and freeze each portion. Thaw as needed for feeding.

Nutritional Analysis (One Adult Portion)
Total Calories: 298.3
Protein: 30.3% (22.6 grams; 90.4 calories)
Fat: 31.1% (10.3 grams; 92.7 calories)
Carbohydrates: 38.6% (28.8 grams; 115.3 calories)
Vitamin A: 948.4 IU
Vitamin C: 3.8 mg
Vitamin E: 0.4 mg
Vitamin K: 11.7 mcg
Thiamin: 0.3 mg
Riboflavin: 0.4 mg
Niacin: 8.0 mg
Vitamin B6: 0.6 mg
Folate: 73.9 mcg
Vitamin B12: 2.4 mcg
Pantothenic Acid: 1.7 mg
Calcium: 313.6 mg (C:P ratio = 1.03:1.00)
Iron: 3.3 mg
Phosphorus: 305.5 mg
Sodium: 78.9 mg
Zinc: 3.0 mg
Copper: 0.2 mg
Manganese: 1.5 mg

Information for Vitamin D, Biotin, Chlorine, Cobalt, & Iodine was unavailable.

Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes (Second Revised Edition, 1982): http://goo.gl/NG7Iqv
Nutrition Data: http://nutritiondata.self.com/

This recipe forms the core diet for my 14 week old male marble red fox. He eats 1-1.8 portions of this food per day in addition to having open access to Science Diet Adult Optimal Care Original dry cat food as that's what my cats eat. I can't change the cats' food as I have no say in that matter rather that's up to my mom, and there is no way to keep him from eating it.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can improve upon this recipe? I am always looking to improve his diet in any way I can.


I just noticed that made a mistake when I posted this recipe, and I've corrected it in bold.
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Alynn » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:58 pm

One of the reasons Ragtatter was redoing the diet was because she was using nutritional data for humans and basing her diet on that. So that's something to bear in mind, that foxes metabolize food differently than humans.
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:24 pm

Alynn wrote:One of the reasons Ragtatter was redoing the diet was because she was using nutritional data for humans and basing her diet on that. So that's something to bear in mind, that foxes metabolize food differently than humans.


Interesting.

Now that I look at it again, the book assigns the following caloric values for foxes:
    Protein: 4.5 calories per gram
    Fat: 9.5 calories per gram
    Carbohydrates: 4.0 calories per gram
Comparatively, here's the caloric values for humans:
    Protein: 4.0 calories per gram
    Fat: 9.0 calories per gram
    Carbohydrates: 4.0 calories per gram
So any calculations based off of the human caloric values shouldn't be too far off then, but I'll still go through & redo them for my recipe.
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:38 pm

Old caloric values for this recipe (using human values):
Total Calories: 298.3
Protein: 30.3% (22.6 grams; 90.4 calories)
Fat: 31.1% (10.3 grams; 92.7 calories)
Carbohydrates: 38.6% (28.8 grams; 115.3 calories)

New caloric value calculations for this recipe (using fox values):
Total Calories: 314.8
Protein: 32.3% (22.6 grams; 101.7 calories)
Fat: 31.1% (10.3 grams; 97.8 calories)
Carbohydrates: 36.6% (28.8 grams; 115.3 calories)

Caloric value calculations for the "Gizmo Burgers" recipe (using fox values):
Total Calories: 316.5
Protein: 30.2% (21.2 grams; 95.4 calories)
Fat: 57.7% (19.2 grams; 182.7 calories)
Carbohydrates: 12.1% (9.6 grams; 38.4 calories)

Diet composition recommendations (from the book):
Protein: 20-30%
Fat: 15-30%
Carbohydrates: 25-60%
Ash: 5-15%
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:44 am

The minimum amount of vitamin A necessary to prevent nervous signs in young foxes lies between 15 and 25 IU per kilogram of body weight per day (Smith, 1942). This vitamin is not stored in the liver until 50 to 100 IU vitamin A per kilogram of body weight per day are fed.

Although a fox can apparently utilize carotene as a source of vitamin A, the carotene is poorly assimilated (Coombes et al., 1940). When carotene is being used to satisfy vitamin A requirements of foxes, a conversion factor of 6.0 should be applied to compensate for the inefficiency of utilization of carotene (Bassett et al., 1946). Until further data are available, it is recommended that growing foxes be supplied at least 100 IU of vitamin A, or 600 IU (360 μg) of β-carotene, per kilogram of body weight per day. During rapid growth, the requirement would be 66 IU of vitamin A per 100 kcal ME.

A fox can tolerate large doses of vitamin A (Helgebostad, 1955). A dosage of 40 IU of this vitamin per gram of body weight (40,000 IU per kg), administered daily over a period of 3 to 4 months, produced no toxic signs; 200 IU per gram of body weight (200,000 IU per kg), administered daily over a period of 1 to 2 months, produced signs of hypervitaminosis A in pups. Signs of excess were anorexia, bone changes with exostosis, decalcification and spontaneous fractures, loss of fur, exophthalmia, cramp, and local hyperesthesia of the skin.

Source:
Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes (Second Revised Edition, 1982), page 26: http://goo.gl/NG7Iqv

A minimum of 100 IU of Vitamin A per kg of bodyweight per day means I'd need to feed at least 363 IU of Vitamin A per day to Chandler based on his weigh-in on Sunday.

If he eats two full portions of that recipe in a day, then he's taking in 1896.8 IU of Vitamin A. However, he rarely eats more than 1.5 portions per day. Is that too much Vitamin A, or is it safe at those levels?
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby TamanduaGirl » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:56 pm

I would try to cut back on the vitamin A while larger doses are not "toxic" they do cause problems and damage. Too much vitamin A can cause spinal lesions and the discs can start to fuze together. You likely would never notice anything until he was an older fox but by then the damage would be done and is not reversible.

A few things though the above only applies to retinol( real vitamin A) not carotines. Carotine line beta-catortine the body can convert into retinol if needed but wont if not needed. A lot of foods hat include vit A content are counting the carotines and estimating the amount the of retinol the body would make from that. So when judging the amount of vit A in food only count the retinol. Though you can use the caotines to ensure it's not to little you don't need to count them when ensuring there's not too much.

Retinol only comes from animal sources, meats, organ dairy so using less if you have too much retinol or adding more fiber so there's less meat per serving is the way to cut it down.
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby Wiggles » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:37 pm

TamanduaGirl wrote:I would try to cut back on the vitamin A while larger doses are not "toxic" they do cause problems and damage. Too much vitamin A can cause spinal lesions and the discs can start to fuze together. You likely would never notice anything until he was an older fox but by then the damage would be done and is not reversible.

A few things though the above only applies to retinol( real vitamin A) not carotines. Carotine line beta-catortine the body can convert into retinol if needed but wont if not needed. A lot of foods hat include vit A content are counting the carotines and estimating the amount the of retinol the body would make from that. So when judging the amount of vit A in food only count the retinol. Though you can use the caotines to ensure it's not to little you don't need to count them when ensuring there's not too much.

Retinol only comes from animal sources, meats, organ dairy so using less if you have too much retinol or adding more fiber so there's less meat per serving is the way to cut it down.

Sounds good to me; thanks for the information.

I'll aim for around 100 IU of Vitamin A (retinol) per kg of bodyweight from now on just to be safe. It's a good thing that I waited to grind the liver portion for this batch that I'm making right now!

I'll change the spreadsheet to exclude the Vitamin A (carotene) from plant sources; there should still be plenty of Vitamin A (retinol) in the diet thanks to the organs & meats.

New Vitamin A (retinol) value for this recipe: 846.9 IU per portion.
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Re: Red Fox Homemade Diet Opinions?

Postby TooManyPets » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:32 pm

Wiggles, this is why we are such good friends. U take everything to 110%.

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