Too Much Taurine?

[Ash]

EDIT: I'm not changing the post, but wanted to ad that the issue Fable is having is not from taurine. He seems sick or hurt. So we can continue the taurine discussion, but Fable's not really a factor in it anymore.

Fable's mood is getting imbalanced this winter again. I'm pretty sure he needs more taurine, though I've been giving him a feed that is supposed to be very high in it (the feed Dave gives his animals). I usually provide a lot more whole prey, but I've kind of slacked off a bit since trying to save money.

That being said, I'm going in to the store today to buy some chicken livers for him since it seems that's one of the number one foods you can pick up from the grocery store with taurine in it according to UC Davis studies. I want to feed him the whole container, lol.

I want to avoid giving supplements if I can and just stick to regular food that contains it. My question is, is it possible for him to overdose on taurine? Especially if I'm not giving him anything artificial?

Thanks. I don't want to go through a winter like before. I feel bad for him. He is just too fluffy for his own good, and I think it has a bad effect on his health this time of year. I noticed a few days ago he started getting like this, and today it felt just like before--able to be with him for about ten minutes before the aggressiveness starts to kick in. I may have to separate him from Ifrit for a while until he calms down. I don't want him to hurt her.

[Ash]

I wonder how much taurine mice and rats have. I've been having a hard time navigating the USDA page lately, but I believe they had a breakdown of the nutritive values there. Since they eat rodents in the wild, I'd assume they have a good amount of taurine in them since foxes and cats live off them in the wild. I know Fable though isn't like a wild fox, having been descended from fur farm stock, so maybe those wouldn't provide him with enough.

[TamanduaGirl]

Wont overdose. If you had like a bag of pure taurine powder and he at it all then maybe but wont be an issue from food sources. No upper limit has been established yet.

The USDA run down of whole prey is more basic things and wont include the taurine content.

A typical mouse will contain 2.4 mg/g taurine - http://catsndogsnaturally.com/?p=219

taurine content of mouse carcass is 7000mg/kg but on a dry matter basis - http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cat-Food-3490/taurine.htm

[Ash]

THANK YOU! I really appreciate you finding those for me. Really, I do.

I'm glad you replied, that really takes a worry off my mind. The livers should work, but in the future I may talk to my vet about possible taurine supplements for Fable during the wintertime.

[Vata Raven]

though I've been giving him a feed that is supposed to be very high in it (the feed Dave gives his animals).

What's the name brand of the feed you get from Dave (I assume you mean the guy from Tiny Tracks)? Or is it something that's custom made for those in the fur farm business?

If its the same brand they have on their website of customers to buy, Ultra Advantage High Energy, I looked that stuff up and it's such a very low quality dog food. Blue Buffalo isn't all that great either.

[TamanduaGirl]

It's fox food made by a fur farmer friend of Dave's. I had tried to find more detailed info on it before but seems the bag doesn't have ingredients on it since is sold as farm food on not pet food. The original company was a rabbit farm though I think so a reasonable guess would be it's got rabbit in it but that's not for sure. I wish there was more info on the food.

[Vata Raven]

It's fox food made by a fur farmer friend of Dave's.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I imagine if you called the food maker and they would be willing to tell you the ingredients they use. If they won't tell you...well, yeah, I know I would not trust the food anymore.

[TamanduaGirl]

It was years ago. I found the number but I tried to get someone else here to call but no one did and I use the phone as little as possible and wasn't planning to use it. I could only find physical address and number no email. If Ash gives me the food name I could probably find them again.

[Vata Raven]

Is this the guy in Nebraska? I remember reading a post from Tammy on here and commented about a good friend being in Nebraska.

If it is the same person, I can find the info on Final Nail and find the guy and call the place up.

[Ash]

I was told it had rabbit as the main ingredient. For the past few years I've given it as a grazing food, but the foxes' main meals have been whole prey and veggies. It was maybe within the past four months I've slacked on the whole prey and meats (rats and variety of organ meats and other meats; lots of chicken and some rabbit). I had always meant to call to get the dietary info. Since I had such a bad experience with Fable during his second winter, I put him back on the Tiny Trakcs food and he went back to being normal. I'd always meant to call and get more info from the manufacturers. I had their number too, but never got around to it.

I'm going to be switching them off that anyway and go with a different dry food for their grazing food. My vet gave me a printout of the Mazuri canid dietary ingredients and it is actually really, really good. So that's what I'll be doing for the grazing food once my current supply of TT food runs out.

The brand name is Heartland Blend and it is manufactured by someone in Nebraska. I will see if I can find the info again to call. Then again, it might be on the bag. I think I'll get off work earlier today, so may call especially since now I'm having issues again.

EDIT: Okay, actually I think Fable might be hurt or not feeling well. He's refusing not only the liver, but everything else too. This is more worrisome. Once I get home from work, I think I need to call the vet if he doesn't perk up in that amount of time... So this really does not seem like taurine. :(

[Ash]

Okay, I chatted with the Heartland Blends guy. His name is John and he's actually a very, very nice man. He's worked with foxes since the 70s, and the same food he sells is the same food he feeds his foxes.

I'm going to make a separate post specifically on "Heartland Blend" with the nutrition info. It seems asked for a lot, so now will get its own topic.

[TamanduaGirl]

Thank you.

[TamanduaGirl]

Oh and just saw the edit. Sorry to hear he's unwell. Hope it turns out to not be serious.