ALERT:. PLEASE BE CAREFUL IF SOMEONE CALLS YOU AND CLAIMS TO BE FROM IRS, ELECTRIC COMPANY OR WHATEVER THEIR REASON MIGHT BE. LOOK AT THIS LINK FOR MORE INFORMATION:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14621

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PUT EXTRA MONEY IN YOUR POCKET https://www.ebates.com/r/SYBIL414?eeid=29041
with the holidays coming up, the return percentage is higher.

Snow leopard domestication project

Tiger, lion, cougar, leopard, anything cheetah size or larger

Moderators: Ash, TamanduaGirl

exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:11 pm

Hello,

I am working on a highly untraditional snow leopard breeding project, which aims to aid in conservation by making the species available to private owners and by offering animal encounters.

You can find more detailed information about it on this website:

http://snow-leopard-at-home.org

I am posting this here because I have a few questions and hope that somebody here could help me out.

Firstly, I am looking for feedback and advice from people who have experience in keeping and breeding large cats, especially if it involved training of the animal to be safe around people. I am pretty sure that snow leopards are safe to have contact with under normal circumstances, and it in fact would be rather hard to get them to attack a human, but still any information about safety measures (which work with unprotected contact) would be appreciated.

Secondly, I am searching for information where I could buy a snow leopard outside of SSP. I already tried to obtain information from the FCF and its members, but haven't had any success. I know that they are available outside of SSP, as some facilities like animal actor agencies, which surely don't take part in it, have snow leopards. Even the infamous Carole Baskin (founder of BCR) used to have them as pets.
If you know any licensed big cat breeder who sells animals to private owners and the like, please let me know. Even if that particular breeder doesn't have snow leopards, he might know someone who does.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6591
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:24 pm

welcome to sybils den.

I personally don't know anything about big cats. I wish I could help. maybe the members have some info that would help.

however, the only thing I can mention is, there are so many bans going on everywhere in the U.S. not sure about the other countries. I know many states completely banned large animals icon-sad

the other thing, (not that I know anything about snow leopards) but, I do own two black bears. one is very friendly,
and I would never let anyone have close contact with him. same goes for my foxes and raccoons.
I can't take a chance if one would bite (doubtful they would) but, I just play it safe. if something would go wrong,
it is an instant death sentence for them.

I am not trying to talk you out of getting one, you seem like you understand snow leopards. but, we all need to be careful with just about any animal..

hopefully, the members will chime in with better info for you.. if I find further info, I will be sure to post it for you.

again, welcome to our message board...
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:30 pm

Hello,

I'm based in Germany, and the laws here are pretty reasonable. It's not easy, but in most states of Germany (including Saxonia, where I live) private ownership of such animals isn't banned. There are federal regulations on this, but as I said, they are relatively reasonable. The only real problem might be zoning laws. I've found 2 cases of private cheetah owners in Germany being forced to relocate their animals into a non-residential area, despite the fact that the enclosures were escape-proof (this is mandatory by law anyway).

The thing with snow leopards is, that they do not attack even when provoked or mistreated. There are cases where wild snow leopards have been caught and beaten to death by unarmed villagers without resisting. I also posted a link on my website to a video where Chinese researchers handle and restrain a wild snow leopard with bare hands and without tranquilizing it. This is what sets them apart from pretty much any other carnivore. Even cheetahs will attack if seriously provoked.
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7963
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:17 pm

Elina from the UK here may know breeders over in Europe. So she may be someone to ask, although she is very busy.

I think it would be great if you could breed snow leopards. :) The "accredited" zoo here neutered the one they had--just because. Private owners need to be able to own these beautiful animals, otherwise they'll go extinct.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, salamander, 3 tarantulas
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:49 am

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be a European breeder. It should be possible to import captive-bred snow leopards into the EU. They are in CITES Appendix 1, but if an animal is bred for commercial purposes, it is treated as if it was in Appendix 2. The only snow leopards bred purely for conservation (which means they are actually treated as an Appendix 1 species) are the animals in SSP and similar programs, and nobody is going to sell them to me anyway. So, CITES shouldn't be a problem.

BTW: I wouldn't necessarily blame the zoo for neutering the snow leopard. It is possible that the accredited zoo took part in SSP or a similar program, and the snow leopard was part of a litter from which only 1 animal was to be used for further breeding, in order to ensure genetic diversity. This might be the reason why it was neutered.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6591
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:01 am

heck, if you are in germany you should have a little easier time finding/owning one.
did you contact any of the zoos if they know where you can get one?

Iam pretty sure, it would be impossible to get one in the U.S

as ash said, elina might find some leads for you. keep us updated..
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:54 am

Why do you think it would be easier? Europe has its own AZA and SSP equivalents (EAZA and EEP) and snow leopards are in EEP. There might be some private safari parks that covertly sell easy-to-breed species like tigers, but an EAZA zoo officially selling me an EEP animal?

I actually contacted a German private breeder who breeds cheetahs, snow leopards and clouded leopards, among other animals. I was referred to him by a European exotic animal trader. Unfortunately, it turned out that this private breeder breeds only for EEP/conservation (snow leopards, cheetahs and clouded leopards are not only easy to tame, but also hard to breed), so he ignored my inquiry.

I also have general problems getting a response to my inquiries. Even when I contact people and facilities outside the "official" (SSP, EEP) sphere, they usually ignore me. This is probably due to the nature of my project. I tried to circumvent this by speaking about a generic breeding project or an animal ambassador program first. This didn't work, though - once I revealed the full scope of my project, it was over. Even my post in the FCF Yahoo group is met with silence.

The only people who usually respond to me and take my project seriously are the ones in the exotic pet sphere - either owners, or traders. Unfortunately, snow leopards are virtually non-existent as pets.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6591
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:19 pm

I was kind of guessing germany would be easier. especially compared to the U.S.
the U.S is really going overboard on banning exotics, even small ones :roll:

I guess I am not fully understanding your intentions and again, I don't know anything about the laws in Germany.
but, many states here in the U.S, we find that the word "pet" and "breeding" makes it more difficult to
to find a willing breeder and to obtain permits. maybe if you can say you want one for a education purposes. :shrug:

sorry, I dont really know anything about most countries. I wish I could give you some ideas, but, right now,
can't think of any. :icon-frown: hopefully, other members here can offer you suggestions.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:09 pm

Well, my intentions and plans are fully described on the "Corporate Strategy" page of my website.

My biggest problem aren't laws. It is the fact that I neither have the facilities for keeping non-domestic animals nor funds of my own to build them. I have to rely on external funding for my project, and my primary target group (potential investors/sponsors) are people who would love to own such a beautiful and exclusive animal as a snow leopard, or just want to keep a large cat as a pet without the dangers associated with tigers, lions, jaguars or leopards. This is why I cannot lie and try to get an animal for other purposes (conservation, animal ambassador program and the like), and also cannot start with easier-to-obtain exotic species like lynxes and work my way up to more exclusive species.
Please note that my intentions are not centered around pet-keeping, but include conservation and education (especially about responsible private ownership) as well. However, my project has to cater to people who want to keep large cats as pets, because I don't know how I could raise funds otherwise.

By the way: It would also be extremely helpful to know where I could buy cheetahs. I've been contacted by a potential sponsor. He would like to keep a snow leopard as a pet, and would be interested in funding my project (probably together with other sponsors) if he receives an animal for pet-keeping in return. Since snow leopards are so hard to get, I had to offer him cheetahs as a backup option in case I couldn't obtain snow leopards even after building the necessary facilities. While cheetahs are very hard to breed in captivity, they should be easier to obtain than snow leopards.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6591
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:42 pm

well your plan sounds like a good one. (sorry I didn't really read your website yet :red-face: ) my days are always so hectic.

when I mentioned about referring to breeders, actually, that is what I meant. I was only giving you an example
what some of us have to do in the U.S to get our exotics legal.

I just wish I had a magic answer for you :icon-frown: I will keep thinking of ideas.
try contacting elina. maybe thru PM or her facebook. she does post here as much as she can,
but, she gets very busy also. she does alot of breeding (mostly smaller exotics) and dogs.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
TexasYankee
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 3:27 am

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby TexasYankee » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:24 pm

Can I make one suggestion?
If you do get snow leopards and are considering selling some cubs as pets, you might want to try to get your facility registered as a captive breeding facility with CITES. Snow leopards are an Appendix I species, which means the only way you can ship them across borders is if you're demonstrably a captive-breeding facility. Registering with CITES would mean that you could expand your customer base to other countries.

This wouldn't be worldwide; Australia and New Zealand ban importation of non-native species, and TamanduaGirl suggested that the US FWS might not allow even CITES-approved captive bred animals, but all three countries are unusually finicky about importing animals (Oz and Kiwiland because of invasiveness concerns, the US because at least three different federal agencies have the authority to block species from being imported). I imagine Canada, the rest of Europe, Japan, and the Gulf States would present no problem, and the US may be possible as well (the only way to be sure with the FWS would be to apply for a permit).

Any rate, good luck. I've never been interested in keeping big cats (well as a kid, I wanted a clouded leopard, but not as an adult), but it's interesting to hear about how different the snow leopard's personality is from other big cats.
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:11 am

@TexasYankee:

Registering with CITES as a captive breeding facility? Never heard of that before. I know that exceptions from Appendix 1 restrictions apply to captive-bred animals, but I have no idea whether it's required to somehow register with CITES, or any other organization for this. I thnik that running a breeding center which is properly registered with the authorities should be sufficient.

@pat:

Thanks. I will try to contact elina, but I think it might be wiser to wait until I manage to get a German federal handler's license. This might help me with being taken seriously by breeders I am referred to. There are quite a few interesting facilities in the USA I didn't contact yet, because of the poor response rate I had when contacting facilities and introducing my project. I think that being able to add the sentence "I'm federally licensed" should improve my chances of getting a response.
User avatar
Nìmwey
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:17 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Nìmwey » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:40 am

pat wrote:I was kind of guessing germany would be easier. especially compared to the U.S.
the U.S is really going overboard on banning exotics, even small ones :roll:

Most European countries are extremely strict, far more so than the United States. The US is really lax and easy in comparison.
My main interest is in parrots, dogs, toothed whales and snakes.
Future animals I want to have when we have land are camels, wolfdogs/wolves, coyotes or jackals, striped hyena or aardwolf. Also poultry, rabbits water buffalo and/or yak for livestock.
TexasYankee
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 3:27 am

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby TexasYankee » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:11 pm

You'd think that, but "properly registered with the authorities" apparently means "registered with CITES."

CITES FAQ wrote:Do animals that were bred in captivity also require permits?

Yes. However, if a commercial breeder of a CITES Appendix-I species fulfils certain conditions and is registered with the CITES Secretariat, specimens from the breeding operation may be treated as if they are of Appendix-II species, meaning that they can be traded commercially (permit requirement is not waived). If the animals were not bred for commercial purposes they may be traded simply with a certificate of captive breeding. Click here for further information.


The "click here" link is broken, but it appears that each country has its own regulations for operations.

The Canadian permit (no use to you, but gives you an idea) can be found here.

A description of the requirements to successfully register a captive breeding facility can be found here, courtesy of the US FWS.

At least in the US, it would appear that you can run a facility eligible for CITES registration, and only register if you actually want to export. Obviously I can't speak to Germany. I can't even find the German information, which is presumably in German.

@Nimwey:
The Scandinavian countries are strict, but is the rest of Europe? The UK and Ireland have better laws than most of the US. So does Germany apparently, and I think I've heard the Dutch laws are fairly liberal. I'd wager that most countries in "New Europe" (possibly excepting the Baltics, which try to emulate Scandinavia wherever possible) also have fairly sensible laws. And considering foia gras and ortolans, I'd be amazed if animal rightists have made serious inroads into France
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:00 pm

@pat:

Do you know whether elina is supportive of private ownership and of keeping exotic animals as pets? I'm trying to figure out whether it would be wiser to wait until I have my license (added credibility) or I can go ahead and contact her right now (if he refers me to breeders, I can still wait to contact THEM).

Return to “Large Exotic Cats”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests