PUT EXTRA MONEY IN YOUR POCKET
https://www.ebates.com/r/SYBIL414?eeid=29041

Snow leopard domestication project

Tiger, lion, cougar, leopard, anything cheetah size or larger

Moderators: Ash, TamanduaGirl

User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7829
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:53 pm

SnowLeopard@home wrote:@pat:

Do you know whether elina is supportive of private ownership and of keeping exotic animals as pets? I'm trying to figure out whether it would be wiser to wait until I have my license (added credibility) or I can go ahead and contact her right now (if he refers me to breeders, I can still wait to contact THEM).


Elina is a member of the board, lol. She's a moderator, but is super busy. She is very supportive of private ownership like the rest of us as long as the individual has the money, resources, permits, and experience to care for the animal.

It would be wisest to obtain the license first. Otherwise, it might be a waste of your time and other peoples' time if you started contacting facilities then just got turned down for the license or something.

Good luck. Get the license first before you start contacting people. ;) If you have legalities sorted, you'll find people who are more willing to talk business with you.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:04 pm

Well, actually I meant whether it would be alright to contact Elina without the license, not the facilities and people she might refer me to.

As for the money and resources, this might be difficult at first. I do, however, have a concept about how to raise money and how to sustain the operation financially (everything is explained on my website). The thing is, I plan to raise funding from sponsors or investors (my main target group are wealthy people who dream of keeping a big cat as a pet, but don't want a lion or tiger due to the dangers and problems) and they will always want to know where I plan to get the animals from once I build the facility with their money.
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7829
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:43 pm

Elina is very busy. She has tons of foxes and has started breeding dogs on a professional level. Also has a family and a job. If you get the permits in order though, I'm sure she would be happy to ask around for you. But for now, I wouldn't contact her either just because I know how busy she is. She gets SO many messages daily from fox owners...

Remember, the snow leopards are the last thing you need for the project. The first things you need are 1) license, 2) the enclosures, and 3) money in order to buy food. The snow leopards are most exciting to talk about and search for, but the best thing to do would be to start building enclosures instead of looking for the animals. Your biggest hurdle won't be getting the snow leopards--it'll be getting ready for snow leopards.

Don't depend on donations, and don't panhandle. Accept donations if they are given to you, but don't expect the public to pay for your hobby. If you can't afford to keep a snow leopard with your own income, then don't get any. You should be able to provide and care for the animal with 100% of your own funds. Later if people feel like donating to the project, then that would be great.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
User avatar
Ash
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7829
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:38 am
Location: Utah

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:47 pm

Oh, also just to let you know, almost all big cat owners will tell you that cougars are the friendliest of the big cats. So in that case, you may want to start off with cougars. What experience do you have with big cats, out of curiosity?
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:23 am

I think you have a few misconceptions about my project. I would recommend you to take a look at my website.

1. Snow leopards are EXTREMELY hard to get if you don't happen to be a public zoo. What you say about getting big cats may hold true for more common species, like tigers, lions or cougars. Snow leopards are an entirely different matter, though. Building enclosures etc. might be a challenge, but it's 100% doable, provided the money and legality are there. Finding a seller of snow leopard is far more difficult, and depends on luck quite a bit. I've been doing research for the project for around 1.5 years, and finding at least a potential source for animals was and still is my greatest challenge by now. I've even been contacted by potential sponsors (or at least people who pretend to be one), but I'm still almost as far away from finding a snow leopard seller as I was when I started my research.

You are, of course, welcome to prove me wrong and show me where snow leopards can be bought by people like me :icon-wink:

2. By "raising funds", I don't mean looking for donations. My project will be a commercial enterprise, which will be primarily based on the extreme rarity of (and substantial demand for) captive snow leopards outside of SSP/EEP. I've had a talk with a Russian exotic pet trader who actually offers snow leopards in Russia (illegally imported, of course). He asks for around $100k for one animal. As I will be selling my animals legally and w/ CITES papers, I will be easily able to charge $50-100k or even more per animal. Additionally, there will be the possibility of offering an animal encounter program, as snow leopards are usually safe enough to handle to let the public interact with them.
The investors I'm talking about won't be required to just donate money for my project. I plan to offer each of them a snow leopard, as soon as I can make them available for sale to the general public, but before everyone else can buy one. If they back my project with a sufficient sum, they will receive the animal at no additional charge once it's ready.
That's also the reason why I can't just start building enclosures etc. before thinking about where to buy an animal. Any potential backer will want to know where I plan to purchase snow leopards from, or at least whether there is a fallback option such as cheetahs. I can't build enclosures until I raise enough funding, and I can't raise funding until I have at least some vague understanding about where to look for animals.

3. Snow leopards are virtually nonexistent as pets, so it's hard to judge on how affectionate they are. But the little material that is there suggests that they are even more affectionate than cougars, and are on par with cheetahs or even surpass them. Also, there is the question of safety, which in my opinion is far more important than affection. Snow leopards are extremely non-aggressive to humans, which makes them better companion animals than cougars.
There are also quite a few commercial reasons why my project would work with snow leopards, but would not work with cougars even if they somehow turned out to be as safe and affectionate as snow leopards (which they aren't).

As I mentioned earlier, everything is described in far more detail on my website: http://snow-leopard-at-home.org If you are interested in my project, you might want to take a closer look at the website.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:27 am

I tried doing a little research for you. (I am sure you already read just about everything out there) but, I was wondering if you could get licensed for a small zoo or rahab?
sounds like that might be your only possible way :shrug:

there are some zoos that do have snow leopards. but, I doubt they would sell any.
if there was a chance they would, I would think only to one that is already a zoo :shrug:

the zoo in san diego ca has them. but, even if they were to sell, getting them to you would be a pretty hard. :shrug:

sorry, I can't be of much help.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:21 am

Getting licensed in a way that would allow me to buy snow leopards from zoos is nearly impossible. I would need to join the EAZA and take part in EEP, and my chances of being accepted into either of them are practically zero.

There are lots of zoos that have snow leopards, but most, if not all, take part in programs such as SSP or EEP, which don't allow for animals to be sold to non-AZA/EAZA facilities (or facilities that at least follow the same rules as AZA/EAZA). So, public zoos are pretty much out of the question.

Is there anything special about the zoo in San Diego? Like, are they known to sell animals easily? Getting an animal to me from the USA shouldn't be that much of a problem, CITES export/import permits for captive-bred animals can usually be issued.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:07 pm

I would need to join the EAZA and take part in EEP, and my chances of being accepted into either of them are practically zero.
sorry, I don't know what that is.
how do you know you won't be accepted? what does it take for them to accept you?

I honestly don't know anything about san diego zoo. I only started looking and noticed that zoo had some. I am sure there are others in the U.S. but, I personally think it would be almost impossible that they would sell to a private owner. on another note, it never hurts to call some and ask. maybe they can direct you to a breeder. :shrug:

sorry, I wish I had a good solution for you, but, I don't icon-sad
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:33 pm

EAZA and EEP are the European equivalents of AZA (Association of Zoos and Aquariums) and SSP (Species Survival Program). In order to have even a remote chance of being accepted, I would need to build at least a medium-sized animal park, hire professionals like biologists (or become one myself), build reputation etc. And even if I managed to get hold of some snow leopards, I still couldn't use them for the purpose I want to - EEP only allows to give away animals to facilities which take part in EEP, are members of EAZA or at least follow the same standards as EAZA. Which means, no pet snow leopards for private owners. Animal encounters might or might not be possible, but that's not the main purpose of my projects.

For species under a captive breeding plan (SSP or EEP), zoos usually don't buy them from private breeders, but breed them themselves and exchange animals with each other. There are a few private conservation breeding projects, like the Cat Survival Trust or even a German private breeder I was referred to. But they breed only for conservation and will never give away an animal to a project like mine (I asked both, and was ignored. Later I found out that the president of the Cat Survival Trust is against keeping wild cats in captivity at all and only breeds snow leopards for conservation).

Anyway, don't get worked up about being unable to find a source of snow leopards for me. I've been working on this for more than a year, and it's so extremely difficult that anyone not already involved with big cats has no chance. But it doesn't matter - I am very grateful that you actually take the time and try to help me as good as you can. I am also very glad that I found this board - I think this is the first place where I actually received genuine approval and appreciation for my project (besides family and friends). Even if nobody here is able to give me much information, moral support matters a lot. Especially since I've been ignored by more than 90% of people I contacted.

If you want to do further research, I suggest you focus on other things which are also helpful for my project, but are easier to obtain. For example, I need detailed information about things such as big cat husbandry, training/taming of big cats (if it's about how to train them to be safe around humans and to be safe to have direct contact with), enclosure construction etc. It does not need to be in electronic form - if you can find any books in bookstores which I can't purchase here in Germany, perhaps we could agree that I import them through you (of course, I will fully reimburse you for the price of the book + shipping costs). Also, it would be nice if you could look around and maybe find some people involved with private ownership of big cats I don't yet know about. A lot of information on this is not available online, the only way to find out is through connections. FCF has turned out to be surprisingly unhelpful at both of these things (obtaining information and finding private owners of big cats), so any help would be appreciated.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:53 pm

I will do the best I can to help. my days are pretty hectic, I try hard to help people here too.

so far, it don't sound too promising for you to find a snow leopard :icon-frown:
but, don't give up if that is what you really want.

a friend of mine has tigers, I will contact him and if he knows has any ideas.

thank you for the kind words, and I am glad you like this board. we are honest, and try to be helpful.

I will try my best to see if I can get any further info.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:30 am

I talked to my friend that has tigers. (he has delt with tigers and other big cats for years)
I asked him about the snow leopards. he said, it is impossible to own them in your situation. icon-sad sorry, wish I would have been able to find a solution for you.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:33 am

OK. Did he explain what he meant by "impossible to own"? Perhaps he thought I'm in the USA, and that I'd need all paperwork and permits according to US law (which is not the case because I live in Germany and Germany doesn't have this kind of restrictions)? Or did he say that they are impossible to buy anywhere if you're not a public zoo?
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:58 am

I told him you are from Germany. he generally gets info from everywhere

this was is answer:
That guy probably wont be able to just get a snow leopard. Thats a breeding program and if he isnt permitted and a selected person into the programs and educated hes not going to get one ever


I may of forgot to tell him you are planning on breeding.
sorry, right now, I have a lot going on. my mind can get pretty boggled at time :red-face:
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den
exoticcats
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:01 am

No problem. Also, tell him that I don't want to get into any official breeding program. I know I have no chance there. He probably meant SSP or something. What I am looking for are breeders who sell such animals outside of SSP. I know they are there, but I can't find them over the Internet and even if I find them, they usually don't want to talk to me. That's why I need somebody already involved with big cats.
User avatar
pat
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:25 pm
Location: pa
Contact:

Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:20 am

SnowLeopard@home wrote:No problem. Also, tell him that I don't want to get into any official breeding program. I know I have no chance there. He probably meant SSP or something. What I am looking for are breeders who sell such animals outside of SSP. I know they are there, but I can't find them over the Internet and even if I find them, they usually don't want to talk to me. That's why I need somebody already involved with big cats.


not that I know much or anything about your ideas. but, from what I gathered from what I posted (from my friend that has tigers) it sounded as though the only way is if you have to be in a breeding program for even a slight chance of owning one :shrug:

since I don't know anything about Germany or big cats, I really don't know what do suggest.
guess just keep trying. :shrug: hopefully, you will find a solution. when I get a chance,
I will see if I any information.
Pat (Sybil and Benny's Mom)

http://sybilsden.com Sybils Den

Return to “Large Exotic Cats”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest