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Snow leopard domestication project

Tiger, lion, cougar, leopard, anything cheetah size or larger

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exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:08 pm

Yeah. I recently had a conversation with someone who ownes cougars and bobcats. He said that laws have changed since Carole Baskin got her snow leopards and that now you need special permits. It might be the case that the US pet trade with endangered big cats has died out now due to restrictions. It also might be that the remaining breeders don't like to talk with strangers. Now, I know that some facilities (which are not public zoos) still have snow leopards ,but I have no clue whether they take part in SSP. Perhaps SSP is not limited to public zoos but also allows animal actor trainers or other types of facilities take part.

When you get to talk with your friend again, please ask him whether he knows about breeders/facilities that sell unusual big cats outside of SSP. Not tigers, lions or cougars, but animals like leopards, jaguars, cheetahs. Even if these facilities don't have snow leopards, they might know more and one thing could lead to another.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby pat » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:50 pm

I thought carol lives in the U.S?

I know many states, have been changing their regulations and banning many animals,
especially the large ones. there was a bad incident in ohio a few years back.
some guy that had tigers, bears, panthers (not sure what else) supposedly
let them all out of their enclosures, and according to the reports, he then killed himself.
(my personal believe, I don't think he killed himself) the state of ohio then started really clamping down on exotics.. it got so bad, that the tigers and even bear owners were forced to get rid of them. icon-sad I think with some of the exotics, the insurance of outrageous.

many of the states in the U.S, seem to copy cat off each other :roll: so many states are banning the large exotics. it is really getting crazy. some people states even the small exotics are illegal.

guess what I am getting at, it is doubtful you will find anything in the U.S.

I;ll ask him again, but, I am pretty sure, he will tell me the same thing.

like I said, if that is what you want, then keep looking. I get pretty busy everyday,
but, will try and look again. I wish I had some suggestions, but, right now, I don't.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:59 pm

No Problem. Yeah, Carol lives in the U. S., but she and her husband got the snow leopards at a time when the laws weren't that strict yet. They later converted their breeding business into a rescue, which means they aren't affected by the new laws either.

State bans usually don't affect licensed facilities, but of course they kill the market for pets in that state. Which means that facilities won't cater to private owners anymore. Bit there of course might be facilities whose owners are supportive of private ownership, but who can't sell their animals to private owners due to new laws. Finding such facilities is difficult, but would be extremely valuable. They don't need to necessarily have snow leopards - having other big cats is enough.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:05 am

you wont find and from the US, there's a guy in the UK, he import a lot of exotics (african hunting dogs for example) he has a snow leopard a few years back, it doed of old age (it was 16 or 17 i think) you'll find him on facebook called 'park exotics' and they often post on forums under the name 'animalsbeebee' they keep servals, caracals, fishing cats, bobcats, lynx, ocelot and other cats, as well as other exotics like zorilla, hunting dogs, binturong, palwan squirrel, coatimundi, kinkajou etc.
best of luck with your endeavour.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:30 pm

Thanks for the tip. Do you know what stance on pet-keeping he has? Is he just a conservation breeder or does he support private ownership and keeping exotics as a pet?
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:00 am

he sells certain animals himself (such as servals, caracals, ocelot, coatimundi etc) i don't know what his stance is on the larger animals, i'm assuming it is pro-keeping, but he would probably want someone who owns other exotics before considering offering large cats to them.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:57 pm

I contacted him, but he said that the guy who sold him his snow leopard died several years ago, and that he doesn't know any other breeders.

However, I might be on to something different. I've been contacted by a former volunteer of the Tanganyika Wildlife Park (Kansas). She said that this facility (which has the largest collection of snow leopards and clouded leopards in the world) is pro-keeping, sells animals and might be ready to give me snow leopards, even from countries other than the USA. I will see if I can find out more.

However, she also told me that the snow leopards there were extremely aggressive and territorial towards humans and were one of the few species visitors couldn't have contact with (at least not with adult animals). This contradicts pretty much all material about snow leopards I've seen so far, including material not listed on my website, like the "Snow Leopards of Leafy London" series. The only explanation I can come up with is that something that has nothing to do with the snow leopards themselves triggers this behavior. Perhaps they simply have too many in one place (over 20 snow leopards), and the cumulative effect of scent marks/pheromones causes them to become extremely territorial and thus aggressive.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Elina » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:55 pm

I have one friend in the UK who had a snow leopard and despite the fact he has every license under the sun he could not get a second. Snow leopards are as rare as rocking horse poop. They are also generally banned due to their status as protected. My friend who had one had her for FIFTEEN years every year he searched for a mate for her and alas no luck.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:20 pm

What do you mean by "banned due to their status as protected"? Plenty of other cat species, including all subspecies of the tiger, are endangered and protected as well, and they can be obtained nevertheless. Did your friend have trouble due to legal issues or due to the fact that he simply couldn't find anyone ready to sell another snow leopard to him?
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:35 pm

As far as the US people have hybrids of tigers as the endangered species act just bans pure species and subspecies not hybrids. It also just bans their going across state and country lines if not native, if native it bans owning them without a license.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:34 pm

Elina wrote:I have one friend in the UK who had a snow leopard and despite the fact he has every license under the sun he could not get a second. Snow leopards are as rare as rocking horse poop. They are also generally banned due to their status as protected. My friend who had one had her for FIFTEEN years every year he searched for a mate for her and alas no luck.

i think that's the guy I linked to aboce lol


Owning snow leopard in the UK is a straightforward process, however GETTING them is a lot more hassle, not least because you need to find someone legally able to sell to private owners, and then get the import itself arranged.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:57 am

UPDATE:

After being ignored by agency #1 (responsible for all forms of keeping of endangered species) I checked with agency #2 (responsible for all forms of commercial work with animals, domesticated or not). They were incredibly quick to respond, but exactly as agency #1, they didn't feel responsible for me until I actually find a suitable piece of land (and probably, start taking other concrete steps to build up my company/project).

The thing in Germany is, that while the legal requirements are federal law, local agencies are responsible for implementing it. And they only feel competent once you tell them exactly where you are going to build the facilities. Which I obviously can't do now, because I don't know how much money I will have available. Raising money, in turn, will be hard without obtaining proof of qualification first, which I can't obtain because I can't show the agency where I will be building the facilities :wall:

For now, agency #2 told me that they will discuss my case in their next meeting, and get back to me after that. Perhaps I can work around the problem by presenting them with a suitable piece of land which I don't own yet, but which is for sale and would be in their jurisdiction (I suggested this solution to them). Otherwise, I will somehow have to make do without the license.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:38 pm

That's how it is where I'm living. :/ I can't go to my state's board for a permit/variance unless I already have an enclosure built, a breeder selected, etc.

If this is something you really want to do, you should build the enclosures. Do you have hand's-on experience with exotic cats? Until you have experience, no one will sell an animal that rare to you. So searching right now for a snow leopard (when you don't yet have a facility) will probably make any opportunities that do come up dead leads.

Example,
Suppose after years of searching you did find someone with a snow leopard who was willing to sell to you. But then you tell them you don't have enclosures or any experience with exotic cats. They aren't going to sell to you then, and they may feel like they've been wasting their time and you'll have hit it off bad with them. That was your shot, and you couldn't take it.

So that's why I personally would wait until I had enclosures to show off and proof of experience before contacting these people. But that is what I would do--and obviously your situation is different than mine, so only you can really decide what course of action is the most appropriate. I would hate to burn bridges and turn people away early on in my search for a dream animal.

Have you thought about visiting the people in Kansas and volunteering? I know it's overseas, but that could be an "in" to working with these animals and eventually getting your own. That's the only way I think you could find one. You sound very dedicated to the project, but obviously I do not know other priorities in your life--so I don't know if moving to a place with snow leopards would be feasible for you. But if they sounded interested and willing to help you out, you may want to see what you can do about that and see if that could be an opportunity for you. :) It's great that you've found them.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:01 am

The problem is, that while breeders and facilities don't like their time wasted, neither do potential investors/sponsors/co-founders. And since I don't have the necessary funds to build the enclosures myself (all in all, the project wil cost about $100k to start, cost of the animals not included), I will certainly need one. Obviously, they would like to know where I intend to get a snow leopard - after all, my whole concept is based on the idea that my project is worth investing in because it is the only way a potential private owner has even a remote chance of obtaining a snow leopard. I've actually been advised by an exotic pet trader to not try to contact potential funders until I know where I will be getting the animals from. Chicken-egg, we meet again...

I decided to go ahead and contact them yesterday. I just figured that if they are supportive of my project, they will understand my situation. If not, then perhaps even an enclosure wouldn't help me. There are people like this English guy who couldn't buy a snow leopard despite of already owning one, so perhaps enclosures and experience don't make much of a difference.

I have thought about the possibility of volunteering there. In fact, I would probably even have time for it this summer. Again, it's probably not a bad thing if they know about my project, because then they perhaps could agree to teach me everything necessary during my stay, rather than offering me a "generic" volunteering opportunity. This would also probably make it easier for me to obtain a permit in Germany, because it would give me a record of work and specific training. Perhaps it could even replace the official proof of qualification I need and solve the chicken-egg problem with the agencies...
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:58 pm

If you are able to volunteer, that would be awesome. :) So many people would die for an opportunity like that, lol.
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