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Snow leopard domestication project

Tiger, lion, cougar, leopard, anything cheetah size or larger

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exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:20 am

UPDATE:

I researched BALAI a bit more. Apparently, it is an EU directive, and each country has to implement it into national laws. The UK has these restrictions that you mentioned, with the separation between registered and approved facilities. In Germany, it's completely different and the only implemented part is the part that public zoos need a permit to operate. There are a few extra conditions placed on them compared to simply a commercial facility, but they are fairly reasonable. In fact, the additional conditions for zoos are easier to fulfill than the primary conditions for becoming a licensed commercial facility. I couldn't find anything about trading restrictions in Germany either - these restriction probably affect facilities in the UK only. The only thing that seems to be regulated this way EU-wide is the trade with primates.

I also put some thought into my project and how I'm going to develop it further. Due to so many people mistaking my concept of "domestication" for selective breeding, and thinking that I want to turn snow leopards into a common house pet, I decided to drop the terms "domestication" and "companion animal" altogether. They were misleading anyway - even if my project becomes a success, snow leopards will never be more than a suitable, safe and (hopefully) common exotic animal in private hands.
I will also rework some of the details, in order to focus even more on conservation. For example, I will replace my plans for "long-term animal encounters" by a volunteering and internship program, and focus more on education with the regular animal encounters.

Right now, I replaced the text on the front page and removed the term "domestication" from the menus. I will rework the other articles within 1-2 weeks.

I am looking for suggestions for a new project and domain name as well. "SnowLeopard@home" has the same connotations as "domestication", so I want to replace it by something more fitting.
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Ash
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:16 am

I'm glad you didn't take offense to my statement or become discouraged. I really didn't want to turn you away from your goals, just give you a more realistic idea of what to do.

I think plan b is more realistic. Definitely search for places where you can get experience. Own some smaller exotic cats first. Get hands-on interaction. If I were you, that would be highest on my priority list. ;)
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:42 pm

It would take a bit more than that to offend or discourage me :icon-wink:

Plan B is more likely to work, but it will be at least 5-10 years until I get into a position where I can realize it. I don't lose anything by trying Plan A first. Rest assured that hands-on experience is high on my priority list - it's very important for both Plan A and B. That's why I'm reworking my concept and website - I know a few places where I could possibly get this experience (even with snow leopards), but most of them already know about my project and don't approve of it. I hope that by moving away from exotic pet ownership and towards conservation, I can eventually win them over.
exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:24 pm

UPDATE:

As I announced earlier, I have reworked the website. The only thing that's still missing is a paragraph about a volunteer and internship program. For now, I left the old text about "long-term animal encounters" in as a placeholder.

I would love to hear your feedback and opinions on the changes. It's especially important for me to know how it sounds from a conservation point of view - after all, I'm going to introduce the new concept to "traditional" conservation breeding project.

In case you don't have the link anymore, here it is again: http://snow-leopard-at-home.org

By the way: I'm still looking for suggestions for a new project and domain name. The old one evokes connotations of house pets, and I want to get rid of this entirely.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:51 pm

Looks a lot better making it sound more like a conservation endeavor. It will look a lot better to people on first glance. :)
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
naja-naja
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:34 pm

1.4 burmese pythons
0.1 indian pythons
0.1 boa constrictors
1.1 macklott's pythons
1.2 reticulated pythons
0.1 blue tegu
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:35 pm

it's good to know they're in private hands somewhere.... this could be enough to convince me to move to the US
1.4 burmese pythons
0.1 indian pythons
0.1 boa constrictors
1.1 macklott's pythons
1.2 reticulated pythons
0.1 blue tegu
exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:48 pm

Well, depends on what you consider private hands. I know a lot of non-AZA facilities that have them, from film animal trainers to large breeding centers like Tanganyika (they have like 20 of them). Most of them are in ZAA though - and those list snow leopards as "Class 1" animals and don't support private (I assume non-professional?) ownership of those. I am either being ignored with any requests about them or facilities don't approve of my project. Sloth Center apparently is a larger, "professional" facility (as opposed to private owners who simply keep a collection of exotics), so it does not surprise me that they have them.

And no, moving to USA won't get you far. You need special USDI permits for snow leopards. I'd suggest you to move to a country like the UK, or even better, Germany. Availability won't help you much if you can't even get alternative species like cheetahs due to licensing requirements.
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:58 am

i can theoretically own any animal i want here, the problem is availability. i would have no problem getting usda, usdi, cbw, state, local or any sort of permit i need if i was to move there. if iw as to move to uk i would have no problem getting dwal or zoo licence or anything like that. the licencing requirements are not an obstacle to me, availability is.
1.4 burmese pythons
0.1 indian pythons
0.1 boa constrictors
1.1 macklott's pythons
1.2 reticulated pythons
0.1 blue tegu
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:02 am

May I ask you why you are so sure that these licenses are so easy to get? The FCF has an article about the legal situation on the public part of its website and getting a CBW permit doesn't sound very easy. Or do you have a vocational/professional degree in the field (zookeeper, veterinarian, zoologist etc.) and experience in obtaining hard-to-get permits?
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:38 am

That's Chasing-tail's snow leopards, and it certainly doesn't surprise me that she has some. Pretty awesome though. She also has cheetahs. I think she's like the only person in the US who has access to such rare animals.
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:25 am

I wouldn't view it in such a pessimistic way. Generally, if you have a larger facility, CBW and other permits and need the snow leopards for a purpose other than domestication, you can get them in the US. I saw several film animal trainers who have them, and also some breeding centers, from small to very large (all non-AZA). It's just that I can't get any of the facilities to be supportive of my project even to a small degree...
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby naja-naja » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:49 am

it's not that they are easy to get, but they can be gotten. they are not impossible to get either, if facilities like chasing tail and others can get them, then I should be able to as well. i wouldn't be going into it with no animal experience looking for a licence to transport snow leopards, i'd be doing what i told you do to, starting my own small zoo with a reptile house, aviary with parrots, birds of prey, waterfowl, etc, primates like tamarins and capuchins, small cats like servals, caracals, bobcats and other exotics like foxes, coatis, raccoons, wolves, porcupine, armadillo, hoofstock like zebra, camel, buffalo.... then move on to larger exotics lions and tigers, hyenas, bears, rare stuff like tayra, fossa, zorilla, once you have a name built up, success at breeding different species, doors will open for you. other people in the business will view you as a serious customer, officials are more likely to grant you permits, it's not about starting out looking to get snow leopards or an equally rare animal, start from the bottom, work your way up.
1.4 burmese pythons
0.1 indian pythons
0.1 boa constrictors
1.1 macklott's pythons
1.2 reticulated pythons
0.1 blue tegu
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Ash
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby Ash » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:16 am

Not being pessimistic about it. ;) Just saying it doesn't surprise me at all that Chasing-tail would have some.

My plans are just like naja-naja's are--starting from the bottom, getting established, and then being able to eventually own the rare things. I don't like to rule anything out as "impossible." However, just because I don't think certain things are impossible does not mean that I think just any way is going to work out--it just means that if you go about it the right way it can. To me, the "possible" way is to do what naja-naja explained. :)
3 red fox, 4 pectinata iguanas, nile monitor, BW tegu, sailfin dragon, leachie gecko, 6 snakes, 2 salamanders, 3 tarantulas
exoticcats
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Re: Snow leopard domestication project

Postby exoticcats » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:29 pm

I know what you mean. Unfortunately, the concept of my project and my personal situation do not lend themselves well to constructing a generic private zoo.
Currently, I am working on a pretty long concept that will describe in detail how and why breeding large cats for private ownership can benefit conservation. Then, I will write some more concepts, e. g. a specification of costs for a small 1-enclosure facility with on-site quarters. This should help me to prove that I'm serious about the project and did all the necessary research. I will also try to get some experience, e. g. in South Africa with cheetahs and big cats. Not that I expect to learn much there (most facilities don't tame or train their animals in any way and just let volunteers have contact with cubs and docile cheetahs), but it might be helpful as a reference.
Finally, I will present everything to EAZA/EEP and hope for the best. If this approach fails, I can still look for other ways to start my project.

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