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Animal Planet The Tiger Next Door

Tiger, lion, cougar, leopard, anything cheetah size or larger

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veralidaine
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Postby veralidaine » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:07 pm

I plan to eventually own a lion or tiger. I plan to own a serval first and then possibly get a larger cat like a cougar before I get the lion or tiger. I would also like to take the feline husbandry courses from the FCF and possibly be an apprentice at TIGERS in Myrtle Beach.

When I get the lion/tiger, it will be because I "just wanted it" though so I fail to see why wanting a lion or tiger is such a horrible thing.
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TamanduaGirl
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:24 am

Drache wrote:I actually wasn't referring to any of your posts at all. :)


Oh okay. I must have missed it then.
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Postby Tigerserv » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:06 am

If Michael doesn't like people thinking that they have the God-given right to own whatever they want, that's just tough.

The authority trips that I keep seeing make me not want to own a tiger. It's not just the content of the messages that the "voice of authority" brings, it's the way that some people throw their weight around that offends me. The content is how they swindle us and themselves out of our lives.

Those who have to give up animals need to think carefully who they are giving them up to who will take them for free. The first offense is that they don't think of your animals as worth giving you money for them. The second is that they take advantage of your desperation, which will cause you to devalue your animals and will also cause you to exercise less discretion about who you give them to.

The person who tells you that you should not touch a "dangerous animal" is not doing you any favors. He is swindling you. He is verbally bullying you if he says that you should not own cats if you do not follow his rules. This kind of "safety lesson" is readily debunked by the actual statistics and by the teachings that at least some of us have received about the use of logic in general. It is incredibly offensive to me to be told that I should not own an animal if I intend to like, actually touch it.

Anyone who sells "absolute safety" in the handling of animals is selling something. Some of those who sell that something are a bit nicer and more popular, but it's still selling something.

I can't stand it when people disparage human rights over any issues.
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BB
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Postby BB » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:55 am

I don't think Michael is saying that no-one should own an exotic animal, I think he is merely upset with the fact of the lack of people caring for one when they get it. (and get rid of it after)
Symbols of power, novelty has run out, too big when fully grown, too expensive,.... whatever the reason, they end up at his sanctuary.
There might be 1000 great owners out there, but the 100 bad ones he has to deal with and all I get from Michael's post is sheer frustration.(quite rightfully so, I believe)
If you are doing the right thing and are a responsible owner, I don't think his post was directed at you.
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Postby veralidaine » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:41 am

Well, I think the issue here is, there are not really that many incidents where big cats are mistreated or not cared for well because, let's face it, if there were, the media would be on them like white on rice. But people see the one or two odd scenarios and think that they happen often when they don't.

That's expected of people who do not own exotics but when people in the exotics community start blaming a certain portion of their community for the problems of the whole community (because that's what I think this is, owners of smaller exotics feeling frustrated that there are bans and such and wanting to take their frustration out on somebody so they take it out on owners of big exotics because it's easy), that portion starts to feel ostracized and they lash back in defense. Soon enough, the community is so divided that they can't band together to fight AR groups and misinformed legislators.

Here is my advice; stop making generalisations, stop venting your frustration by finding false blame in members of the community when the real blame lies with people outside the community and stop choosing what is easy because odds are, it is not correct.
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Postby Tigerserv » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:17 am

BB wrote:I don't think Michael is saying that no-one should own an exotic animal, I think he is merely upset with the fact of the lack of people caring for one when they get it. (and get rid of it after)
Symbols of power, novelty has run out, too big when fully grown, too expensive,.... whatever the reason, they end up at his sanctuary.
There might be 1000 great owners out there, but the 100 bad ones he has to deal with and all I get from Michael's post is sheer frustration.(quite rightfully so, I believe)
If you are doing the right thing and are a responsible owner, I don't think his post was directed at you.


I've been reading the same rhetoric from Carole Baskin, in the same mean spirit, for over five years so I am familiar with this kind of thing. Baskin and Michael both advocate the removal of human rights to punish everyone for the alleged misdeeds of a few.

There is a difference between being frustrated over a state of affairs and putting up a pose of such frustration to gain power over others. There are various red flags in Michael's speech. One of the biggest is when he says that he's sick and tired of people saying that they have the right. Another is the self-pity trip when he is the one who CHOOSES to take other people's animals, at the same time that he disparages people for wanting them.

The truth is that everything that Michael disparages other people for is either the usual flaws of normal human nature that mature people learn to tolerate or often enough it's not actually wrong.

I blame the people who try to place blame. They are the ones who create the idea that there is something to be ashamed of in the first place. They even practice shaming people who need help. Blamers cause a lot of problems and develop into haters and animal rights activists.

Another red flag is when they stop counting the positive contributions that animal owners make. Americans want to save the tiger because so many of us have seen or heard of positive encounters between tigers and humans. Saying that we should take no risks is exactly the same as saying that the contributions that we make are worthless. It's a red flag when someone wants to try to repeal this principle, that there is no gain without some corresponding risk. I do liken it to driving a car because even though I don't carry a cell phone, there is some risk and my car can kill a person faster than a tiger can. You can see that from how many deer have come to grief on my front bumper.

There is no good reason to disparage a right. What has been done to hundreds of thousands of US servicemen in support of our rights, only to have whoever gets frustrated and feels like it just walk off with them? Rights don't come free of charge and they are not divisible. We casually dispose of the lives and health of hundreds of thousands of our own people for the sake of issues that allegedly involve rights and just as casually say that someone should be restricted from owning an animal that is no more dangerous than an average human being.
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Postby Tigerserv » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:32 am

veralidaine wrote:Well, I think the issue here is, there are not really that many incidents where big cats are mistreated or not cared for well because, let's face it, if there were, the media would be on them like white on rice. But people see the one or two odd scenarios and think that they happen often when they don't.

That's expected of people who do not own exotics but when people in the exotics community start blaming a certain portion of their community for the problems of the whole community (because that's what I think this is, owners of smaller exotics feeling frustrated that there are bans and such and wanting to take their frustration out on somebody so they take it out on owners of big exotics because it's easy), that portion starts to feel ostracized and they lash back in defense. Soon enough, the community is so divided that they can't band together to fight AR groups and misinformed legislators.

Here is my advice; stop making generalisations, stop venting your frustration by finding false blame in members of the community when the real blame lies with people outside the community and stop choosing what is easy because odds are, it is not correct.


Blanket punishments and restrictions can be characterized as the tools by which "we" do ourselves in. Those don't wind up affecting irresponsible people except by the very crude means of taking away what they have and ruining their lives when the enforcers choose to enforce the law, and the enforcers wind up being nit-picky swindlers with agendas, for sale to the highest bidder. One principle of law enforcement that has gone by the wayside is the principle that law enforcement should avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

I am just plain not on board with the "look but don't touch" idea. Everyone touches horses, which are just as deadly and twice as paranoid. Part of becoming a whole human, for everyone, is being able to touch allegedly dangerous animals. What, we now have to have a college degree to become a whole person?
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Postby Tigerserv » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:03 pm

veralidaine wrote:Well, I think the issue here is, there are not really that many incidents where big cats are mistreated or not cared for well because, let's face it, if there were, the media would be on them like white on rice. But people see the one or two odd scenarios and think that they happen often when they don't.

That's expected of people who do not own exotics but when people in the exotics community start blaming a certain portion of their community for the problems of the whole community (because that's what I think this is, owners of smaller exotics feeling frustrated that there are bans and such and wanting to take their frustration out on somebody so they take it out on owners of big exotics because it's easy), that portion starts to feel ostracized and they lash back in defense. Soon enough, the community is so divided that they can't band together to fight AR groups and misinformed legislators.

Here is my advice; stop making generalisations, stop venting your frustration by finding false blame in members of the community when the real blame lies with people outside the community and stop choosing what is easy because odds are, it is not correct.


Blanket punishments and restrictions can be characterized as the tools by which "we" do ourselves in. Those don't wind up affecting irresponsible people except by the very crude means of taking away what they have and ruining their lives when the enforcers choose to enforce the law, and the enforcers wind up being nit-picky swindlers with agendas, for sale to the highest bidder. One principle of law enforcement that has gone by the wayside is the principle that law enforcement should avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

I am just plain not on board with the "look but don't touch" idea. Everyone touches horses, which are just as deadly and twice as paranoid. Part of becoming a whole human, for everyone, is being able to touch allegedly dangerous animals. What, we now have to have a college degree to become a whole person?
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:20 pm

veralidaine wrote:Well, I think the issue here is, there are not really that many incidents where big cats are mistreated or not cared for well because, let's face it, if there were, the media would be on them like white on rice. But people see the one or two odd scenarios and think that they happen often when they don't.


So very true. There was an old lady who had a lion recently. She and her husband had cared well for the lion but when her husband died she felt she couldn't care for the lion and called a sanctuary to come get it. This well cared for animal, that people int he area liked even, getting a new home was such a big story that animal Planet showed up.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:23 pm

BB wrote:I don't think Michael is saying that no-one should own an exotic animal


Maybe not any species but he said in his first post that tigers and other big exotics should be left in the wild and not bred or owned. He has expressed the same beliefs in the past.
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Postby Lionsniper » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:40 pm

IMHO, if Michael and people like him who have exotic animals would stand behind what they say, then they would euthanize every exotic animal they have to set the example. Otherwise, the fact that they spout off is that they are jealous of the many people, including myself, who can handle these animals, claws and all and provide wonderful homes for them. There will always be people who do not care for an exotic or domestic animal properly, what are you going to do? And what about children, how many abused, unwanted children are there in this world!!! So, go ahead Michael, get out of the sanctuary business and then maybe people would listen. I am thoroughly sick of this kind of diatribe, stabbing other exotic animal people in the back instead of having cohesion.
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Postby BB » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:17 pm

Mhhh, you all seem to know Michael, so I guess there is not much for me to say.
I base my posts on what I read, I do not know him, and I do not own a tiger. Like I said before, all I got is frustration out of his post and when one is frustrated comments like "they all should live in the wild" come naturally. I did not see the drama within.....
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Postby Lionsniper » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:26 pm

Hi BB, I do not know him, I just do not like his "holier than thou" attitude, that is all, and I especially am not here to judge or flame throw, however............I am looking to post a video of some folks who handle their tigers at a sanctuary in Orlando, FL somewhere, one of many Facebook friends I have that work with big cats. I have a few pics on there as well as www.rexano.com. I've been doing this far too long and to think that someone with his attitude against ownership and the like, what if everyone were like him, I certainly would have never been able to raise tigers and other big cats, and more importantly, what about the future zookeepers and owners, why take that priviledge away from the next generation? How selfish is that!
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veralidaine
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Postby veralidaine » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:31 pm

BB wrote:Like I said before, all I got is frustration out of his post and when one is frustrated comments like "they all should live in the wild" come naturally.


The thing is, that shouldn't just be okay. Everybody should think about what they're going to say and make sure that they think about whether they really mean what they're going to say. It shouldn't be a valid excuse to just go 'Oh, I didn't actually mean that, I was frustrated' all the time.
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Postby Tigerserv » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:52 pm

"Danger" is something that a human faces, and doesn't run away from.

The "wild" is whatever happens to be thrown together at a given time. The same thing goes for an "ecology."

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