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Animal Planet The Tiger Next Door

Tiger, lion, cougar, leopard, anything cheetah size or larger

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astargirl22
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Postby astargirl22 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:16 pm

D R A M A... eeppers... :shock: :shock: :shock:
~PROUD PARENT OF A SPOILED LITTLE SWIFT FOX NAMED BELLA AND A HANDSOME CHILL MARBLE FOX NAMED BARRETT~
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BB
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Postby BB » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:26 pm

:roll: yeah, I know....
Drache
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Postby Drache » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:43 pm

While I don't agree with Micheal in that everyone should be prevented from owning exotics, I don't think it's fair to call him hypocritical just because he works at a sanctuary. I operate a rescue for exotics myself, and there have definitely been times when I felt that certain people should be prevented from owning certain animals. I also have very strong feelings about importing wild-caught animals and other such topics. Am I a hypocrite because I have those animals in my care, yet I think other people should be kept from owning them? I don't think so, because I did not purposefully seek these animals out to acquire. I ONLY took them because it was the only place for them to go, and I would gladly be free of them if they hadn't come from abusive, neglectful, or non-law-abiding homes in the first place. Maybe that's a distinction that some people have a hard time understanding. I don't agree with blanket bans, but I also don't agree that shelter, rescue, or sanctuary workers are hypocrites because they speak out against the ownership of animals they themselves are currently keeping. How those animals came to be with them is important.
Tigerserv
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Postby Tigerserv » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:02 am

Drache, you wouldn't accept excuses from me, would you?
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Michael
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Postby Michael » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:39 am

Well well looks like I woke up a sleeping giant. Glad people are taking this seriously. Well I stand behind what I say.
Tigerserv I served this country for 6 years and 11 months decorated and honorably discharged US Airforce from 82-89. If you want proof I will gladly show you. I would also like to drag your a** around with me to see the places I have seen. No not all animal abuse cases make the news or internet, you figure if its not on the internet well it must not be true. I have said it before and will say it again I DO NOT THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TOO OWN A TIGER OR LION OR BEAR. I have seen people try to keep tigers in chicken wire, in garages, in really small cages.......what for why do they want to own an animal like this and treat it so bad. I never said all exotics and I dont want big cats and bears in good homes taken away from anyone.

Ok you want everyone on your street and everyone you ever seen or met in your life to have the right to own such an animal? Now think about everyone you know including all your neighbors, your not aloud too pick and choose I mean EVERYONE you know. You dont get too leave anyone out because of their financial state, age or anything. EVERYONE reguardless of education qualifications zoning or state laws because thats what your telling me.

Still want them too have that right?

I really dont care if you go into your cages with your cats or not. If you want to take that risk its up to you, my main point is I want to stop the idiots from being able to own such an animal.

Where did I say I dont want people to be able to own exotic animals? I used to sale exotics just not bears or big cats.

No this post was not directed towards responsible owners of large cats and bears.

Thanks BB you understood my point perfectly.

I am a more resposible person than a lot of owners I have met and my cats have a great life here. My holding cages are small my cats have a large area and swimming pond. They also get fresh kills to eat and a large selection of cut meats. I try too let my tigers be tigers as much as I can.

Most of you on here dont know me at all, but you sure act like you do. Only people I have met from here are Pat and Mandy.



Some of you really believe that you should be able to own an animal of any species and treated it however you want to and no one should be able to tell you different.

Cynthia what have you been doing for far too long? Im 45 and have had exotics since I was a kid. Also I am not jealous of you dont flatter yourself.
Who told you I would euthanize my tigers to prove a point, nothing could be further from the truth. Your right I do have an attitude its my right remember.

Tigerserve you have been in trouble at some point? Am I right?

All of you go visit a sanctuary near you I dont care if your a cat owner or not just go and listen to the stories and look at the cats. Dont come to mine because you dont want to hear what Ive got to say about it.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:01 am

astargirl22 wrote:D R A M A... eeppers... :shock: :shock: :shock:


This is FAR less dramatic and far more civil than when it came up before :)
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:17 am

Well Micheal you said before you didn't think anyone should have the right to own a tiger, if you reread your second post but if you meant everyone that's not as bad.

Not everyone should have kids or puppies either. I'm not as against people needing a permit for a pet tiger but laws banning them all together are absurd. The problem is it always leads to a ban. We had good strong laws here where everyone with big cats needed a permit and were inspected we now have a ban, that exempts sanctuaries so the only owners who get no inspections or government over site of any kind are people calling themselves sanctuaries, as if they are incapable of having problems, wonder who pushed that bill?

Nothing ever seems to be good enough except a ban. Besides as said horses are even bigger and just as dangerous people just do not view them as, as majestic as tigers and lions since they are common, yet you do not need a permit and inspections to own a horse or even a stallion.

These cases that did not make the news were any of them cited/prosecuted for the abuse and neglect you saw? Because if it is then it becomes public record which almost always makes the news. So a case of people not doing their jobs and enforcing current laws.
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Postby Drache » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:34 am

Tigerserv wrote:Drache, you wouldn't accept excuses from me, would you?


I don't know you, nor do I know anything about you, nor do I have any clue what "excuses" you are referring to. So I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little bit more specific.
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Postby Tigerserv » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:11 am

Drache wrote:
Tigerserv wrote:Drache, you wouldn't accept excuses from me, would you?


I don't know you, nor do I know anything about you, nor do I have any clue what "excuses" you are referring to. So I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little bit more specific.


Frankly, I think that your excuse for keeping exotics, essentially for the purpose of getting them away from other people, is a bunch of fluff.

I'm having trouble believing that there is any such thing as a sincere adherent who's been in the business for more than a few months.
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Postby Tigerserv » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:28 am

Michael, you seem to feel free to attack a lot of what I hold dear. I think that several people here do know you because you run very true to a type. Every generation has to deal with your type and then once we've cleaned it out, we unfortunately make the mistake of kicking back and failing to teach the next generation what we've learned.

What I would like to do is see the places that you claim to have seen before you got there and form my opinion without your help. Even your use of the term "chickenwire" is a red flag that tells me that you get your rhetoric out of a familiar playbook. Did you ever read how the Enigma cipher was cracked? Same thing. Your rhetoric is unconvincing and that is why you have to seek men with guns to back you up. When you leave someone's place without winning a convert, well, I could tell you what is wrong and how to fix it, but I don't want to. The biggest clue that I will give you is that you failed to convert because you don't make a good case. Then again maybe I can't tell you how to fix that because there is no right way to do something wrong.

The Emperor wears no clothes, and he needs to point guns at people's heads and rant in order to get people to say he is wearing clothes. Of course this regime falls apart ever few years. Then some few keep a grimmoire and a Malleus and they're prepared to launch the same scam again in another part of the world or another time. Did you know that Kansas and Oklahoma essentially traded laws governing the sales of alcohol, so now Oklahoma is more restrictive than Kansas? They just shove this stuff back and forth, play shell games and such.

You don't convince people because you talk at them, treat them as if they are less than you are. You bullyrag people in person too, don't you? Even when you sound genial it's nasty, right? Because you're convinced that you know so much more and that you should simply be obeyed, you give people the creeps.

What would it mean if I have "been in trouble"? Would it mean that someone came to my house and decided that they were going to close down my breeding operation no matter how many lies they would have to tell? Did they go to the judge and sound so convincing that they must believe their own lies? Did they use their special sociopathic powers to swindle a judge and some police officers to tear down what I had built, take it away from me, and leave me homeless, in debt, and without a friend in the world? Have you ever done this to anyone?

Or do I simply empathize with people who have been dragged through this kind of personal torture to the point that they would commit suicide if they weren't already convinced that they had died and gone to the Inferno? Do I empathize greatly with people who have been so betrayed by the system, which was led by some bullying blowhard to attack them personally, in such a way that they felt as if their very soul had been torn out of them, soiled upon, then crammed back in with a load of nettles and rocks?

I could keep trying to probe for some kind of humanity in the people who take away the animals that they love and who would stand between me and those animals that I love, but why bother? It's a waste of time and energy. Even the entertainment value eventually fades. But the tiger's kiss, that lasts forever.
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Postby TamanduaGirl » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:07 am

Okay I'm a moderator and one of my jobs is to keep the peace. Let's please NOT get personal and stick to arguing our cases and not amongst ourselves. The last post makes to many personal accusations(attacks) which are not allowed. If you are not sure where you went wrong PM me and I'll point them out.

PS try not to respond to such flames in kind. I'd like for this to remain in the realm of debate and not a fight.
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Postby Drache » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:02 am

Tigerserv wrote:Frankly, I think that your excuse for keeping exotics, essentially for the purpose of getting them away from other people, is a bunch of fluff.

I'm having trouble believing that there is any such thing as a sincere adherent who's been in the business for more than a few months.


Since when did I say that the only reason I keep exotics is to get them away from other people? Haven't I defended the rights of exotics keepers multiple times in this thread? Don't I have my own thread in the Classifieds section looking for breeders/dealers to purposefully buy the exotics I want? I have a whole houseful of animals, some rescued, some purchased. I have never denied that. There have been very few animals in my home which I would have preferred had never been in the system in the first place. Among these are animals that are illegal to keep in my area (such as native wildlife), or black market imports. If you think I am making "excuses" by taking in these animals and still preferring that other people stop trying to get their hands on them, I will respectfully have to disagree.

I am not the one here who believes in blanket bans for ANY exotics. I simply said that calling a shelter worker a hypocrite for believing in bans JUST BECAUSE they have those same animals under their care is not logical. There is a difference between rescuing an animal from the system so that it doesn't die, and purposefully getting an animal and contributing to the system. You may not agree with someone, but that doesn't make them a hypocrite.
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Postby Tigerserv » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:41 am

I'm sorry, Drache. I am going to have to take a lot more responsibility for what I say online and think about thinks a long time before I post anything.

Sorry, Hyzenthlay. I get carried away and I stop thinking. I'm not a good debater.

Michael just asked me to hold the common human in contempt. I get mad about that, I don't know what's appropriate at the time, then I look back and I just want to delete everything I wrote in the last 24 hours.

So I'm going to tell Michael that yes I want everyone who he describes in such flattering terms to be able to legally own a tiger. That system worked for 27 years in British Columbia and for 25 years in Kansas, and it's no worse than letting anyone who feels like it buy a horse. Hundreds of people have been killed by horses in that Canadian province and that U.S. state since 1980 and we don't hear a peep about that, and that's fine because that is exactly how real life, normal life works. Other places have had such freedoms even longer, and it's working, even when people take their animals for walks and let people touch them.

I feel so bad when people run down people like that. I feel like that's what got us into so much trouble that society can't dig itself out of and like I'm talking to a wall and it just gets worse.

Michael's the one who says that I don't want to hear his stories. Ever notice that we hardly ever hear from the vast majority who have good experiences with the animals? They're afraid to talk. The bullying against owners is so bad that in a state like Missouri owners know that not getting the permits is safer than getting the permits.

And no, Michael's not going to "drag my a**" anywhere. A debate is supposed to go two ways, not just his way, and that won't be a debate either. One thing that I have become quite certain of from reading about all of these goings on is that the people who continually deal with the animals and people who have problems, like bankruptcies and foreclosures, or maybe a bit of poor preparation and planning, is that I don't want those "rescuers" to make the rules.

They don't have the whole story. They continually dismiss anything outside of their "we're rescuing those animals from those God-awful irresponsible owners" paradigm. This means that no matter how many examples we bring up to prove that there are good owners and animals that do well, it won't have an impact on them. They don't know very many good owners except those that they have vetted out. I do not consider the criteria that Michael mentioned to be good criteria. Those who lay down that criteria are quite willing to call owners idiots and tell legislators that those owners shouldn't own animals if they do things like allow others to touch the animals.

No matter how good someone's intentions, if they continually look only at the ugly end of the business, their thinking is going to be shaped by the worst of that business. The results come off looking like a swindle no matter how good that person's intentions might be. The rescue movement has made people not only afraid to talk to them, but disgusted with them. As I've already said, the vast majority of the stories won't be heard anyway. There is also the problem that those owners who do well and whose animals do well will come under attack when the so-called rescuers hear about them. There is an ongoing program to target such people. Overall, the visible and politically active movement is a total swindle. This gives rescue a bad reputation.

If anyone won't take my word for it that I am taking care of my animals responsibly, I don't want them in my house, in my yard, viewing my yard through binoculars, talking to my veterinarian, interviewing me, sending me Emails, and if I catch them putting antifreeze in their water, well, I just don't want them doing that either. The point of the previous sentence is that I believe that such an attitude is contemptuous of the common man and woman, it is toxic, and people are so driven by the attitude and all of its correlary toxic ideas that they think it's right to push something that's "marginal" over the edge or sabotage something that is working well.

The ban movements, the "rescue" movements that want strict controls, between them they have less than no intelligence, as we have seen. I am allergic to exposure to them, such that even though I must take responsibility for what I do or say, I'm still going to be painfully sensitive and reactive and I only know in a hypothetical sense how to develop a thick skin. Most of the activities that would give me that thick skin would also give me cancer, metaphorically if not actually.

Maybe I know too much and can do too little and that drives me a little crazy. But no one is going to drag any part of me that begins with the letter "a" anywhere.
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Postby Tigerserv » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:19 am

One thing that we're never going to get to see is a representative sample of exotic animal owners because too many of them have to hide even where they could easily be legal, and no I don't accept the way that the "rescuers" present ownership. That balanced view isn't going to come from people who are just there to express contempt of our rights, that's for certain.
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Postby Michael » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:21 pm

Hey Tigerserv lets just agree too disagree, Im not going to argue my point on here because there seems to be a bunch of great folks that are members. I do agree with you about perfect legal operations having to hide. When I first opened I had every law agency here and zoning crawling up my butt. I did nothing wrong and hid it from no one all my ducks were in a row even the health dept came at me, I didnt throw up a barn and fences over night this took proper planning.

I have been to a few places and did try to help the folks out with ideas but they didnt want help they wanted me to leave them alone so I did. I wasnt pushy or acted like I knew everything, I would be the first to admit that, Im still learning things all the time. I really have been to a place where the people had a tiger in chicken wire.....no sh*t.

I know people have limited funds just like me, but you can get off your butt and at least clean out the waste in the tigers cage and drag out left over bones and gut piles. There is no excuse for that now is there? I was hurt for the last 15 months with surgery on both elboes I tore the tendons in each and between friends and family I kept my cages clean and the animals fed, wasnt easy with the cold winter we had but it got done.

Hyzenthlayforesight I know I can get carried away when it comes to this topic, I will try to remember to keep it nice.

I have always said to my wife there are people in this country that shouldnt be allowed to breed...lol let alone own a tiger. (im kidding about the breeding part okay? )

I have no authority to take anyones tiger from them, in every case someone has called me to HELP. So I do...... and in most cases I do not even take the animal.

My wife is so upset about what she has seen she wont have any part of it and wont even go to the animal auction anymore. The stress on the animals is a lot for her to take in and myself somtimes I guess but I dont want the auction to stop.

People like to hang titles on others, you call me an animal owner or sanctuary or keeper, I like to think of myself as a care giver. I didnt buy all my animals they needed a place to go so I took them in. I didnt go too the sale looking to buy a lion or tiger for a pet. I did buy a bear to keep it away from slaughter and shes not a pet she hates people except me. I dont go in with her but I can feed her with the fence between us. I rehomed 3 bears from a place Mandy worked that closed and a friend of Pats needed a home for Grunt my biggest and last bear I took in. My tigers came from places that were being closed down or changing directions in their mission and I took in a tiger from another place that was full and the tiger was abandoned by its owner.

ok now what do you want too call me? I dont care if your civil with me or not but the moderators do...lol you can always pm I will reply back too you. H

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